Ep195 Maggie Carrington - The Real Reason Great Employees Quit

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Maggie Carrington
the major stumbling block that I've seen in organizations is that reluctance to involve everyone.

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Maggie Carrington
to really understand what's working well, what needs to be changed and what they would like to see.

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Mike O'Neill
welcome to Get Unstuck and On Target, the weekly podcast that offers senior leaders insights and strategies to not only lead with competence and vision,

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Mike O'Neill
but also to achieve groundbreaking results.

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Mike O'Neill
I'm your host, Mick O'Neill. I coach top level executives on the power of ethical leadership to forge teams to be as united as they are effective

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Mike O'Neill
in each episode.

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Mike O'Neill
Join me for insightful conversations with leaders just like you, providing practical advice to help you get unstuck and propel you and your company forward.

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Mike O'Neill
Let's get started.

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Mike O'Neill
Welcome to Get Unstuck in On Target. I'm Mike O'Neill, and today we're diving into a topic that's critical for every organization's success. Cultural transform. Nation. Few people understand the complexities of workplace culture. Like today's guest, Maggie Carrington has spent decades in the trenches of organizational change, from gutting manufacturing facilities to major transitions to help in fortune 500 companies align their values with their actions.

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Mike O'Neill
As founder of Happy Dude, she brings a unique perspective of what it really takes to transform workplace culture. As an executive coach, I have observed that successful cultural transformation requires more than just putting values on the wall. It demands authentic leadership, alignment between what's being said and what's being done. In today's episode, Maggie shares invaluable insights on how leaders can create meaningful change while avoiding common pitfalls that derail cultural initiatives.

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Mike O'Neill
So what makes this conversation particularly valuable for business leaders is Maggie's practical approach to measuring and sustaining cultural change. She'll explain how to gather meaningful feedback, interpret key indicators, and ensure that your cultural transformation efforts stick. Are you ready to learn how to create a workplace culture that not only attracts top talent, but truly engage them? Let's dive in with Maggie Carrington.

00:02:27:14 - 00:02:56:08
Mike O'Neill
Joining me is Maggie Carrington. With over 35 years of strategic air experience. Maggie is the founder of Air Habits Food, where she focuses on making work a better place to be as a certified HR professional with expertise in leadership, coaching and diversity and inclusion. Maggie has built her career on transforming workplace environments where business objectives and employee fulfillment successfully coexist.

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Mike O'Neill
You will soon find out why I wanted to have Maggie on the podcast. Welcome, Maggie.

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Maggie Carrington
Thank you Mike. Pleasure to be here. I appreciate the invitation.

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Mike O'Neill
You know, Maggie, I'm looking at this and you said with 35 years of experience and I'm not sure how far back we can go, but it is decades, is it not?

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Maggie Carrington
It is. It is. I think the, first time I met you was at the Challenger Breakfast Club, which I know started in 2000. And we used to alternate meeting at Shoney's and Chattanooga and the Ihop down in Dalton. So I'm sure we crossed paths there over the last two decades. Maybe close to two and a half now.

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Mike O'Neill
Well, for those who don't know, Maggie, Maggie is highly regarded in the HR community. And, in this region. I want to bring Maggie on for a variety of reasons. One, she has extensive HR experience. But what really intrigued me about, of all the things we could talk about, it's company culture. That topic comes up a lot in my work, and what I asked Maggie to do is kind of offer her insights on what goes in to transforming company cultures.

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Mike O'Neill
Why did you feel that cultural transformation might be the best thing for you? And I talk about today?

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Maggie Carrington
You know, when we first talked about the the various and assorted things under the umbrella, and we landed on cultural transformation. It really resonated with me because it gave me the opportunity to reflect on those environments that I've had the pleasure of working in, but also maybe to provide a little historical perspective on where that all started and how I came to regard myself as an HR architect.

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Maggie Carrington
Who specialized in cultural transformation.

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Mike O'Neill
So what we do start peeling back the layers. There. You have worked in a variety of industries. Walk us through if you don't mind that industries that you worked in as an HR professional and perhaps some of the industries you are supporting as a consultant.

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Maggie Carrington
Yeah. Thanks. I started, in private industry, in a startup organization. I joined the company three weeks before we moved into the building.

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Maggie Carrington
That was computer disk manufacturing in 1982.

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Maggie Carrington
So a lot of life lessons very early in business in that environment, where I had a lot of responsibilities because in a startup environment you do whatever it takes. But in 1986 we were acquired by a then fortune 500 company,

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Maggie Carrington
and the president of our company looked at me and said, you know, Maggie, we don't have personnel.

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Maggie Carrington
You're it.

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Maggie Carrington
And that's how I got into HR.

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Maggie Carrington
That was a giant leap for me not having the background in HR, but certainly having great foundation and as a business person first. And that's the foundation from which I've operated over the arc of my HR career, is as a business person, first.

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Maggie Carrington
The next year is the first time that I met Doctor W. Edwards Deming when he came on site because like the big three auto manufacturers at that time, the parent company for our little disc manufacturing facility, engaged him to provide consulting services.

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Maggie Carrington
And a lot of that was based on statistical process control. And he was sometimes referred to as the father of total quality management.

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Maggie Carrington
And as much as his philosophy is around quality management. What I came to appreciate in very short order, and what we experienced over the next four years that I was with that company, including his initial visit in 1987, and the last time that I saw him in 1990 was adopting his philosophy.

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Maggie Carrington
And for all the incredible impact his practices had in enabling us to improve productivity, equality and so forth. What I really came to appreciate was that his philosophy for management surround people.

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Maggie Carrington
I also came to appreciate that like his philosophy around continuous improvement. Cultural transformation never stops.

00:07:48:15 - 00:08:11:20
Maggie Carrington
You don't really ever get there. There's a lot that you, do to make inroads into it. But the world's ever changing. And so the culture is ever changing as well. From there, I moved to a subsidiary of caterpillar, literally down the street in the same industrial research park.

00:08:11:20 - 00:08:49:09
Maggie Carrington
And I came in to that organization shortly after they had been named by Industry Week as one of the best top ten plants in America, or something along those lines. I remember the banner on the wall, but I don't remember specifically the designation, only to find that at that point in time and like some of the recognitions that employers can seek today to highlight the cultures that they've created by having employees complete surveys and provide feedback and so forth.

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Maggie Carrington
At that point in time, that recognition came out of a written submission by their head of HR.

00:08:59:07 - 00:09:34:11
Maggie Carrington
And what I learned when I got into the organization was that she was a phenomenal writer. Maybe better said is phenomenal fictional writer. And it was a damaged culture. There was a lot of harm that had been done over some of the leadership choices that had been made. And so over the next two and a half years, we focused really on the people and transforming that culture

00:09:34:11 - 00:09:58:01
Maggie Carrington
I still I still exchange Christmas cards with some of the folks that I worked with in that organization. Though I left there more than 30 years ago. From there, we moved to Chattanooga and I joined Chattanooga Group, which was then an Hixson based manufacturing operation with a worldwide footprint and world wide reputation.

00:09:58:01 - 00:10:09:19
Maggie Carrington
And so spent three and a half years there working within that organization truly creating a different kind of place to work.

00:10:09:19 - 00:10:41:24
Maggie Carrington
A real testament to the impact of that cultural transformation was when the former CFO, my boss and, at Chattanooga Group reached out to me five years ago when he had joined a company in Austin, Texas. And invited me to come down to Austin and consider joining their team as their head of HR, citing the work that we had done together at Chattanooga Group as one of the highlights of his career.

00:10:41:24 - 00:11:08:13
Maggie Carrington
yeah, it's been an interesting ride between manufacturing and and, professional services. I have, clients now that are, profit clients or profit services clients or profit transportation clients. And continuing to work with manufacturer organizations as well.

00:11:08:13 - 00:11:28:18
Mike O'Neill
you have backgrounds not only across industry sectors, but in organizations that are in different phases, if that's the right term. Yeah, we're going to focus primarily on cultural transformation. So I'd like you to reflect, if you don't mind, on those experiences that you kind of shared with us.

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Mike O'Neill
What are the common roadblocks that companies face when they're trying to change their culture?

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Maggie Carrington
I think that for my seat, that the question is one of why? Why are you wanting to make a change? And starting with why is very important. The other aspect of that is that I think that leaders and I'm I'm guilty of this as well, because I claim that I can see the future. And that's how I've gone about helping organizations create their future culture, create their HR strategy with with clients that I'm working with now, for example.

00:12:18:19 - 00:12:28:04
Maggie Carrington
But I think that the major stumbling block that I've seen in organizations is that reluctance to involve everyone.

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Maggie Carrington
And it's not, it's not a, it's not a democracy. Last time I checked, usually the CEOs get the the final vote and the most important vote on the direction that the organization heads. But oftentimes, the CEO is the most reluctant to understand the synergies and importance of inviting those folks that are doing the job day in and day out to share their opinion, their observations, their input, their desires about where they would like to see changes made and so forth.

00:13:07:17 - 00:13:39:13
Maggie Carrington
Doing that in a systematic way. So you're not necessarily literally asking the largest organization I was part of at its peak had 1500 employees. You're not asking 1500. You're asking a small group of folks. To participate in conversations initially in focus groups, if you will, to really understand what's working well, what needs to be changed and what they would like to see.

00:13:39:15 - 00:14:03:18
Maggie Carrington
And so just a couple of stumbling blocks. The CEO thinking that they they know and sometimes it's the HR person because I've always felt pretty confident that I know, what it's going to take. But I've also been committed to and each of those organizations that I spoke about creating groups called different things depending on the environment.

00:14:03:18 - 00:14:18:16
Maggie Carrington
One was called an employee club, for example. To help inform and, create the vision for what that future culture needs to look like.

00:14:18:18 - 00:14:52:15
Mike O'Neill
You've stressed the importance of knowing the why to involving all employees, if possible. But there's a practical side to that. But then you mentioned CEOs. As you know, our listeners are primarily leaders. We have CEOs listening in to this podcast right now. From your vantage point. What would you suggest to any key leader that they really must do if they're going to be effective as the CEO, as the owner, as a member of the C-suite?

00:14:52:21 - 00:15:01:17
Mike O'Neill
What does it they need to do to improve the likelihood that that cultural transformation they're looking for sticks?

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Maggie Carrington
There's been a lot of focus around, mission purpose values in organizations. And as much as Deming would say, you know, to not have quotas and slogans and sayings driving what you're striving for, it doesn't seem, very practical. And I'm modern America to not have those things be part of how cultures identify what they aspire to be, and specifically in the purpose and mission.

00:15:41:02 - 00:16:18:10
Maggie Carrington
The CEO is to be the one to have the clarity around that. Collectively, the articulation of the values is critically important to have those permeate the organization. But more than anything on the wall, which was Deming's sticking point is are people seeing those values. Is there alignment between what we're saying and what we're doing, what people are experiencing?

00:16:18:12 - 00:16:53:20
Maggie Carrington
If there's alignment, then the CEO has done a good job of both cultivating what those values are and ensuring that they're being lived to. If there's misalignment, that's where it starts, as with the CEO. So that was the would be and some of the most difficult conversations I've had have been with CEOs in highlighting where there's a mismatch between what's being said and what's being done.

00:16:53:22 - 00:17:30:04
Mike O'Neill
So let's talk about that a moment by tapping into the employees through a variety of means. But gathering that information, if there is awareness that there's not alignment, what's on the wall, what's being said is not necessarily what is being experienced. When you work with your leaders, be it when you're employed or now that you consult, how do you go about measuring this success that this alignment is moving back in that direction?

00:17:30:06 - 00:18:07:24
Maggie Carrington
Well, that is a really good question because, you know, in in the modern era, there's a lot of opportunity through engagement surveys in partnership with outside or outside organizations. You know, like Gallup Work Institute, great place to work are three that are top of mind where you have the opportunity to gather data. And, a good number of those questions get at the heart of whether those values are being lived to or not.

00:18:08:01 - 00:18:33:12
Maggie Carrington
Not not necessarily explicitly, because those organizations don't come in and look at your values specifically. They're looking a little more universally at the research and work that they've done that highlight what makes an organization attractive to talent, the ability to retain talent, and so forth. And all of those are indicators of culture.

00:18:34:15 - 00:19:28:06
Maggie Carrington
Culture is an indicator of walking the talk of the values. So those would be ways that, leaders can really capture and analyze the data around it. But a lot of that feedback was still going to come anecdotally. And those open ended questions. Looking at the nature of the concerns that are raised by employees over time, whether it be via an ethics hotline or concerns coming into HR around particular conduct and behaviors and so forth, and then looking retrospectively at turnover and ideally at the exit interview data as well in understanding where's the disconnect that's enabling us to keep good talent.

00:19:28:08 - 00:19:40:11
Maggie Carrington
And are those controllable or not controllable factors. And for that controllable ones, where did those tie into our values?

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Mike O'Neill
You know, Maggie, one of the things that I find when the topic of culture comes up, it's kind of it's a squishy topic. And what I'm glad to hear you say is that as squishy as it may appear, you can in fact look and measure alignment you can use outside resources. That gives you baseline. You can see to what extent is the needle moving in the direction that the leadership team wants it to go in.

00:20:10:08 - 00:20:31:03
Mike O'Neill
But you also point out is that you have to have mechanisms in place so that employees have a voice. Sometimes that's in the form of an ethics hotline or, or the like. But therein lies is where you might find something that you might not pick up otherwise. But Maggie, I was particularly intrigued by the comment you made about turnover.

00:20:31:05 - 00:21:02:02
Mike O'Neill
And that is when people leave an organization. There's a variety of reasons. If you ask and you have a quality exit interview process, you can learn so much. The people who leave are leaving for a variety of reasons. But I would think one of the reasons that they might would be induced to leave is there. It's saying, in essence, the leadership, they don't walk the talk.

00:21:02:04 - 00:21:36:21
Maggie Carrington
Yeah, I, I would have to look at the, statistics, but I think it's it's not a far stretch to envision that a majority contributing factor to an employee's decision to leave is based on their direct manager. And so having those values permeate the organization. They don't live in the C-suite and stay in the C-suite because culture is created in every nook and cranny.

00:21:36:21 - 00:22:04:17
Maggie Carrington
In fact, I think it's fair to say that you have an overarching organizational culture, but then you also have cultures within departments. And so one of the indicators that I would always consider is what's the turnover in a department as compared to the overall turnover? You can learn a lot about a manager by how many people stay versus how many people go.

00:22:04:19 - 00:22:33:07
Maggie Carrington
And your point about having a well crafted exit interview is spot on, Mike, because a lot of times when you sit down with somebody who's made the decision to leave and he ask question, you know, why are you leaving? Well, I got a better offer. Okay, good. I've always wanted to work with people who are smart enough to go out and find something better, and that's great.

00:22:33:09 - 00:23:21:01
Maggie Carrington
But what prompted you to decide that you needed to take a look around. But what was the genesis of that decision? And those probing questions are the ones that can really get to that disconnect by manager. You know, I your your inquiry has made me think about a particular manager that was in a manufacturing operation that I was part of that was really well-regarded by top management, had perfected the art of managing up, and created an illusion of camaraderie and teamwork when he was presenting his team.

00:23:22:07 - 00:23:53:23
Maggie Carrington
That was not the experience that his team loved. And I was put in the difficult position of recommending that he exit the organization because of the harm that was being caused within the organization. And that was an astounding decision for him, as well as for the team, because they just truly thought they were stuck with him there.

00:23:54:00 - 00:24:23:02
Mike O'Neill
And it, so that's a great illustration of how you're able to help, them who felt stuck with that particular manager. You know, Maggie, as we kind of reflect on this conversation, and if you were to try to summarize in the form of closing thoughts or takeaways, what would be one fundamental principle about cultural transformation that every leader should know?

00:24:23:04 - 00:25:02:08
Maggie Carrington
Well, I always begin with the end in mind. Have clarity around what it is that you're striving to achieve. And I go back to the very opening of of our conversation. Mike, and commenting about the why. There's a lot of motivations in business today to, to achieve short term results, a lot of expectations around that. So I guess the one thing that I would really want leaders to, to really commit to is a long term vision.

00:25:03:03 - 00:25:22:00
Maggie Carrington
A long term commitment and understanding that it is continuous improvement. Use those short term gains and wins as building blocks to creating a long term, sustainable, continuous evolution and culture.

00:25:22:02 - 00:25:42:24
Mike O'Neill
You know, you mentioned Deming and you had an opportunity to not only study, but meet Deming when you mentioned, began with the end in mind. It drew me back to, Stephen Curry. I reached and I even have the shows you I still have my seven habits card.

00:25:43:01 - 00:25:43:17
Maggie Carrington
Fabulous.

00:25:43:17 - 00:26:10:22
Mike O'Neill
And you had opportunity. Deming. I had an opportunity to meet Covey. And that experience of just meeting someone, it was really transformative for me. And, And the reason why is he had this sense of presence about him that I had not experienced before, someone who was so influential, but his ability to tune everything out and be fully focused on me at at that moment, it, it was very, very special.

00:26:10:24 - 00:26:30:05
Mike O'Neill
You know, Maggie, I want to come back to you in a moment because I want to make sure people know how to reach out to you. But before we wrap up, I've got a question for the leaders in the audience. And that is, why do people choose to follow your lead? Is it out of obligation, or do they truly believe in your vision?

00:26:30:07 - 00:26:55:21
Mike O'Neill
It's my sense that leadership thrives on clarity, confidence and decisive action. It's not just about holding authority, it's about making tough decisions that drive real bottom line results while keeping the team focused and motivated. I'm an executive coach. I get to help leaders develop those decision making capabilities and build resilience needed to guide the teams through the challenges.

00:26:55:23 - 00:27:24:08
Mike O'Neill
Those challenges could include transforming culture. My business is called Bench Builders, and we focus on transforming good leaders into great ones. So my challenge to listeners is to lead in a way that draws people to your vision, not because they have to, but because they believe in your ability to guide them forward. If you'd like to learn more, visit bench-builders.com and let's explore how we can support your leadership journey.

00:27:24:10 - 00:27:43:18
Mike O'Neill
Maggie. As expected, I knew the things you'd be sharing would be invaluable for those who were listening to you. You can see that you are not only a podcast guest, you are a podcast host. I can see why you'd be very, very good at that. Thank you for joining us on this episode.

00:27:43:20 - 00:27:52:03
Maggie Carrington
My pleasure, Mike, thanks very much. And and the work that you do is critically important in developing great leaders. So keep it up.

00:27:52:05 - 00:28:02:06
Mike O'Neill
Now, Maggie, I'm confident listeners are going to want to say I want to learn more about ultra transformation or they've got questions. What's the best way for them to reach out to you?

00:28:02:08 - 00:28:26:22
Maggie Carrington
So you can learn more about your habits you'd at Air habits.com Hrb study. It's a real word. It's the natural essence of being. And, that's one way. There's certainly a link there to be able to connect with me for just having a conversation. Or you can email me directly at Maggie. Maggie at Air habitat.com.

00:28:26:24 - 00:28:42:00
Mike O'Neill
I've already told Maggie I love her company name, habitat, and I love the tagline making work a Better Place to Be. You've made this a better place because you've added your expertise. Thank you so much, Maggie.

00:28:42:02 - 00:28:43:23
Maggie Carrington
Thank you. Mike. Take care.

00:28:44:00 - 00:28:54:08
Mike O'Neill
I want to thank also our subscribers for tuning in, and I hope you have picked up on some insights that will help you get unstuck and on target.

00:28:55:10 - 00:28:59:10
Mike O'Neill
Thank you for joining us for this episode of Get Unstuck and on Target.

00:28:59:12 - 00:29:20:00
Mike O'Neill
I hope you gain insights to help you lead with competence and drive your organization forward. Remember it, Bench builders. We're committed to your success, your leadership excellence, and your strategic growth. If you've enjoyed our conversation today, please leave a review rate and subscribe to keep up with our latest episode.

00:29:20:09 - 00:29:24:09
Mike O'Neill
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Mike O'Neill
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00:29:28:05 - 00:29:35:10
Mike O'Neill
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