Ep190 Gary Searle - How to Build a Referral Network No One Can Take Away

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every single referral comes off the back of the conversation.

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it could be a conversation between you and your client, and it could be a conversation. You have a networking,

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Speaker 2
in order to get more referrals, you need to be having more conversations and what I call productive conversations.

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welcome to Get Unstuck and On Target, the weekly podcast that offers senior leaders insights and strategies to not only lead with competence and vision,

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but also to achieve groundbreaking results.

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I'm your host, Mick O'Neill. I coach top level executives on the power of ethical leadership to forge teams to be as united as they are effective

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in each episode.

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Join me for insightful conversations with leaders just like you, providing practical advice to help you get unstuck and propel you and your company forward.

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Let's get started.

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Speaker 1
Joining me it's Gary Searle. Gary is the founder of customers, a marketing company that specializes in helping businesses create referrals and word of mouth. Let me quote Gary. And yes, referrals are created created by you. You only decision is do you want to create them consistently or sporadically? If consistently is the answer you've chosen? There's a process for doing so, and I'm willing to share that with anyone who will listen.

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Speaker 1
We are listening. Welcome, Gary.

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Speaker 2
Thank you. I really appreciate it. And I just got to say, you've got the perfect voice for a podcast you already have. But I really like that introduction. Really appreciate it. And I'm looking forward to this conversation.

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Speaker 1
You know, I was looking forward to it because we had a chance to chat beforehand. But my interest in bringing you on the podcast is multifold. The most obvious is many of our listeners are in key leadership roles. They have responsibility for growing their business and customers. Is a as a business, if you will, to help other businesses improve awareness, walk us through a little bit about customers.

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Speaker 1
What is it and how does it work?

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Speaker 2
Yeah. So when it started it was purely going to be a coaching consulting type business to help business get more referrals. Then off the back of that, it's kind of evolved and developed over time. But essentially how it's broken down is that we, able to develop between 1 and 5 referral sources. And these referral sources are what I considered to be the most predictable and consistent referral sources that exist.

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Speaker 2
If you notch them and build them correctly. So you've got your clients past and present, usually your best source of referrals, partnerships, and collaborations with other businesses. Very underutilized. Very, very effective affiliates. Build an affiliate team. I treat that as an essentially a referral, of course, for pure commission, but it's still a referral that employees. If you've got a business where you do hire other people, an amazing source of referrals, not just your sales team, but anyone who works at the company and the networking activities.

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Speaker 2
There are a lot of people that look down on networking, and there are a lot of people that really talk it up, but that doesn't always mean that they get effective and consistent referrals from networking. So it's building up to five of those sources. Some businesses might need all five, 1 to 5, others might want 1 or 2 of them.

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Speaker 2
I usually recommend at least 2 to 3 to get them that consistency, but those are the ones that we focus on here.

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Speaker 1
Of the five, the two that you most often recommend to clients to get started with, which two are those?

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Speaker 2
So if you're an existing business and you've got had clients customers in the past, your clients and customers, it's the first one. And then it would be partnerships with other businesses. If you're new and you're only just starting out and you've not had any clients customers, I would actually get them to reach out to people what they already know in their network.

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Speaker 2
So that's kind of a little bit separate. But then it would be the partnerships and collaborations with other businesses and maybe in a team of affiliates as well. That's something that you could build while you haven't had any clients, and still get great results. So it really depends whether you're starting out or whether you're established just to, which would be the first two that I would recommend.

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Speaker 1
Most of my clients are established businesses. Most of our listeners probably fit into that category. So why don't we go down that path? Your advice up for your clients is start with the folks who know you best. Customers, and partnerships. Let's just kind of go through each and term. It seems obvious to say talk to your customers, but why is it we overlooked that as a potential referral source?

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Speaker 2
So I think for a lot of people there's a fear involved. So it's a fear of, like offending your customer in some way, maybe hurting the relationship that you've already built because you're now coming out and asking them for something. But from my experience, if you do 1 or 2 things, you let them know when they first become a customer, that you're going to be asking, ask asking for referrals and say, is that okay if we do a great work with you?

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Speaker 2
Pretty much everyone would say yes to that. So you're already quite creating that culture of referrals in your business. But even if you haven't, you can then go to your customers and you can then preempt it in advance so you can be like, okay, we're moving largely now into referral marketing for our business, and you can say it like we want to put the majority of our budget into creating a great experience and, great results for our customers.

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Speaker 2
So we're not going to be spending money on ads. We're not going to be spending as much money on marketing. So in order to make that successful, we need people like yourselves or our customers already to recommend us and reference to the people that they know and love if they get great results. And then what you do when they say that's fine is you wait maybe a few weeks, sometimes even a couple of months.

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Speaker 2
It it's kind of tailored to that person and that business. Then you can go to them and say, at that point, are you able to refer us? Obviously it's not as simple as are you able to move fast, but you get the gist. So you're essentially setting up the ask in advance, and it depends on whether you've done that previously or whether you have to stop and scratch.

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Speaker 2
But it's letting people know and then, oh, my spirit is. Pretty much everyone is happy with that. But I think there is a big fear for people with heart in that relationship if they ask their customers for referrals.

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Speaker 1
So let me see if I heard this correctly. And that is there's reluctance oftentimes on business this part to ask customers because it feels maybe a little bit, inappropriate. And what you're suggesting is in the early part of a relationship, establish that expectation by just saying that's the nature we do. Would you having problems with us at some future point, coming back and talking about potential referrals and.

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Speaker 1
Okay, good. And then you also said if you don't do that upfront, it doesn't mean it's too late. You can introduce the idea, so that they at least they know that that's going to be a question coming. But you may not necessarily immediately ask for a response. You might kind of let it sit for a little while and come back.

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Speaker 1
That being said, let's say you do come back to this existing client and you ask for a referral. There's an probably a very specific way that you would recommend how that ask should unfold. How do you recommend to your clients that they ask?

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Speaker 2
So what I found that's been the most successful is to just ask them when they just had what I call a win working with you so it could be some great result of some kind. Don't wait until they're just about to stop becoming the client, or don't ask them out. Obviously, when something's gone wrong, don't ask them at a random time where it makes no sense.

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Speaker 2
It's like maybe you do these regular feedback sessions, which I do. I kind of do, I run an evaluation of how things are going. So then at that point, I'll kind of talk about the wins that they've had, and usually it will be like a recent one. Now at that point I can be like, fantastic. I'm so glad that you've had that kind of win recently.

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Speaker 2
I really enjoyed helping you get that. Who else do you know that would love to get a similar kind of results. And then and then I talk about their life, their business, whatever it is for that specific business, so that I'm talking about it in terms of who do you know who you really care about? You would also want to get those same results that you would love to help do that.

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Speaker 2
So at that point, it's not about the referral. It's not even so much about them. It's about the people that they know, and it's about what they can achieve through it. And it's who they care about that they want to give that kind of support to. So it's essentially helping them to help someone else, which from my experience, most people are happy to do.

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Speaker 1
You know, you said something kind of caught my attention. And that is one timing is important. You want to time this ask soon after a recent win and you characterized by who do you know that you care a lot about who would benefit from a similar win? You're kind of qualifying this. Don't give me a name.

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Speaker 1
I'm looking for someone who is important to you, who you could speak to when they give a name. I think you ought to talk to so-and-so. Do you just take that and run with it, or is there involvement on your client's part to make that introduction?

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Speaker 2
So that can be an either all for my experience. Generally, it's better if it's coming from them, but you might get the occasional people that are actually like, I really don't feel comfortable with that. I don't want to be making the ask. And then to that point you can be like, okay, that's fine. Is it okay if I mention your name when I reach out to them?

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Speaker 2
And then from that side, usually they're more in trust in having a conversation with you because you mentioned a specific name. So predominantly and generally I would want them to be making that introduction. So whether that's like a three way DM chat, an email, quick phone call to them to say, I'm going to be making an introduction to someone, I'd love you to meet whatever they feel comfortable with.

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Speaker 2
But if they really don't feel comfortable making that themselves, I will be happy to reach out on their behalf and just mention their name, and I'll just make sure they're okay with that.

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Speaker 1
At least I got you. Let's keep building on this. The other category that you said RB or a high priority would be partnerships. And, my interpretation of partnership may be very different than yours. What do you mean by that expression?

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Speaker 2
So for me, when I talk about partnerships and I put collaborations in, as well as when two businesses come together for mutual benefit and mutual growth, so it's that you can do something together as two businesses that you otherwise maybe wouldn't do separately. And that could be some sort of cross-promotion. It could be a referral partnership. It could be that you can combine your services or your products in some way because they complement each other.

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Speaker 2
So it is a would the main thing I think is that two people benefit equally well. So it's equally certainly they both benefit from it. I'd always be equally so on that collaboration with that person and all that business.

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Speaker 1
It sounds like there's some very, intentional parts that go into that. You kind of elaborate. It's more than just partnership. It could be potential collab creation. When you're working with your clients customers, how does that engagement work? Is it one on one? Is it group is how does one when they reach out to you and said, let's, let's talk about doing business together.

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Speaker 1
What does that look like?

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Speaker 2
So is this in terms of people that are interested in having partnerships and collaborations and that sort of thing? You yeah.

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Speaker 1
I meant more specifically your customers as you're bringing on customers to help them with this. When they reach out to Gary and say, I'd like to learn a little more about what does that process look like? What is it that they gain when they work with you and your team?

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Speaker 2
So for me, the first thing that I'll do if they've come to me to ask about that is I'll send them what I call my invitation letter. So it's a letter that I've written to anyone that I'm interested in. And it explains about me my business mission, the vision for the business and what it does for the people that join us.

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Speaker 2
Then off the back of that, if they're interested, it can be one of two things. Some of them will just sign up there and then others they might want a conversation. So we'll book in a conversation, we'll go through their existing business and we'll see if they're well set up to start developing these partnerships and collaborations. If they're not, I'll tell them kind of what they need in order to get there, and I can write that to help with that, or they might go away and add some selves and then if they are ready and they're well set up for it, then we can just get that with, well, I have a membership offer.

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Speaker 2
That's the one for the collaborations and the partnerships where I help facilitate those partnerships and collaborations in a mixture of the network that customers has, of people that are interested in those types of collaborations that I also go to in their networks as well, and I'll reach out to the people that they already know and help try and facilitate a partnership on their behalf that, oh, I can teach them to go and do it for themselves with people they already know, depending on what they prefer.

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Speaker 1
Dear, you were recommended to me by my coach and my coach said, Gary gets this and my coach didn't explain what it was that you got. What is it about what you and what your group does that is kind of a secret sauce. Why does it work so effectively?

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Speaker 2
I think there's there's a few reasons. There's a few things for that. So one of them is it is very underutilized. Our locked in I think there's a thing that a lot of people don't get is that you can get referrals consistently, predictably, and it is a form of marketing. And if you make it a form of locked in that it is very, very effective.

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Speaker 2
And I think the other thing that, well, that is, is building a referral network that is high quality, but enough people that if you build enough of those relationships with those people, you can go and ask for referrals whenever you need them, whenever you want them. So you're never short of people to ask for referrals from, and also people you can get referrals to because there's a give and take that.

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Speaker 2
But I think that's where most people fall short, is that they don't have enough people they can ask for help from, and then they're not going to making the ask often enough.

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Speaker 1
Right. That's helpful. You know, Gary, you've been doing this for a while. You own a business. In what ways has what you do for your clients evolved in terms of what you offer? You mentioned at the outset that it's kind of changed over time. What was the original concept for customers and what does it look like now?

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Speaker 1
How is it shifted over time?

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Speaker 2
I love this question. This is one that I don't get asked very often. So for me, it started where, like I said earlier, what originally it was going to be just a coaching consulting business and it was going to be almost exclusively getting referrals from your clients customers. That was like the one source we really focused on. And then over time, those two things happened.

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Speaker 2
One of them people requested that I can help them to get more referrals from collaborations and partnerships, because that's something that I personally did myself. And people were like, could could we achieve this? And I was like, well, actually, yeah. And I was like, I thought I was stupid. I was like, why didn't I think of that? Why didn't I get to that as well to get my clients getting the same thing?

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Speaker 2
But it was more that I felt like my most expertise was getting more from your clients and customers. But then I thought, I've got the experience of doing it myself. I can probably help others. So that's how the membership then develops. And then on the back of that, I as I ruined my own skills in getting more referrals, I realized that there was five referral sources that I found were very, very consistent and very, very predictable.

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Speaker 2
One of them, I actually didn't do a massive amount in my business because I didn't need it, which was affiliates, but I knew how to build affiliate in to other people. So that was one of the ones I adopted. But that over time the five referral sources took shape. And that's essentially how businesses evolve. Now. That's what's happened to where it's coming from.

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Speaker 1
Interesting in terms of where you see things going regarding referral marketing. If you had a crystal ball, what do you see in that ball?

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Speaker 2
So I think over the next few years we're going to see more and more businesses really adopting referral marketing. On a consistent basis. It becomes a big part of their business, particularly when ads get even more expensive. Even social media ads that used to be really cheap are going to get more and more expensive. It's harder and harder now with, I feel, with DM and outreach, particularly cold outreach, to get in front of why people, the platforms are making it harder for people.

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Speaker 2
People don't take any notice of them. And then the ads as well. A lot of people do put ad blockers up and they just don't switch on to them anymore. I think that is the the content thing again, is going to be a lot harder with content because the algorithm is always changing and they make it harder and harder for you to share your content to everyone in your network because they want you to buy ads.

00:16:50:08 - 00:17:08:07
Speaker 2
So I think people are going to start to notice that they've got to create their own opportunities with something that they own. And one thing that you can always own is your own referral network. Nobody can ever take that away from you once you've built it, because you could reach out to that in the myriad of forms. It could be phone called email, it could be DMs.

00:17:08:07 - 00:17:24:24
Speaker 2
But again, social media emerge. They could do it banner for that. But they're not going to ban you because you're creating genuine relationships and not just spamming people. So I think we're going to see more and more that. And then I think the other thing we're going to see, as well as I think we're going to see, I been used more and more within referral marketing.

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Speaker 2
I don't know exactly yet because I know by no means an expert in AI, but I'm looking to potentially collaborate with someone who is an AI expert and I've got a client who is that person, so I might be able to work with them to see how I can be used within referral marketing and very, very effectively. So that's two things that I see happening in the marketplace certainly in the next few years, but probably more short term here.

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Speaker 1
You've mentioned several things I never thought about, and that is it's getting harder and harder to get people's attention.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 1
You mentioned the traditional targeted marketing with advertising, too, getting pretty sophisticated in the capacity, but it also means there's saturation that the people you're targeting are really getting hit left and right. You also mentioned that the platforms are out there, pick out whatever it might be, that at the end of the day, they're in business to sell ads.

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Speaker 1
And therefore, if people find a way to get done, what needs to be done without buying ads, that doesn't help their business model. So you're saying that those algorithms are constantly being kind of tweaked, that it kind of comes back to if you can own your own referral network, and it may be a multi-pronged, it could involve all five categories that you've kind of described, is that you have maintained some degree of control.

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Speaker 1
And the assumption is if it's customers, these are customers who can offer first hand. This is what I experience working with Gary and guest. It comes out of their own mouth. It may even be in their own words. In the process of asking for a referral or an introduction, do you find that you might provide maybe some information that they could share, that they don't have to create it?

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Speaker 2
Yeah. So whenever I'm asking for a referral pretty much from anyone, but certainly from my customers and clients, I will say to them, like when you're making a referral, they agree to and they say they're going to do it. I say, do you feel comfortable with how to ask for that referral? Would you like some help? And the best way to do that and how we can actually navigate that.

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Speaker 2
And majority of it, I'll never say actually, yeah. Could you give me a couple of pointers that would help with this? But occasionally they will come by and say, no, actually, I'll do this by telling myself I know how to do it is fine. They've got you know what, I need it. I trust that they know exactly what to do, but if they need that signal, I can provide that here.

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Speaker 1
You're a company founder? You've learned a lot along the way. Would you be willing to share an example where either you or a client got stuck? And when that happened, what did it take to get unstuck?

00:20:09:23 - 00:20:31:09
Speaker 2
So I think the big one for me was when I moved into the online space, I had a previous business. I've been in business for now, coming up to a decade, and I when I started that originally, I started with just doing reach outs, like walking into businesses and providing more support and ask, you know, asking if they need more support and that was okay.

00:20:31:11 - 00:20:49:20
Speaker 2
But then I started to get, a couple of referrals and then off the back of that, I didn't twig straight away that that would be my main thing. But then when I moved into the online space, I didn't have an online network. I only knew people in my local area, so I couldn't really utilize my network. And again, I started to do that thing with like outreach and content.

00:20:49:20 - 00:21:05:15
Speaker 2
And I was getting some kind of results, but they weren't consistent. So I think for me, the big challenge was that how to get the clients from my own business and, you know, space consistently and predictably, and then also being able to switch off from the noise of all the people telling you what you need to be doing and what you should be doing.

00:21:05:15 - 00:21:30:15
Speaker 2
Because I listened to that and again, it was working okay, but not right. And I realized that it is because it wasn't in alignment with me and who I am. And I'm very relational based, very conversational based. So a lot of the things that people promote through online business with marketing doesn't work for me personally. So that's when I was able to utilize referral marketing and found that relationship based marketing, it was the right thing for me.

00:21:30:17 - 00:21:50:18
Speaker 2
So that's one that really comes to mind. It would be that when I started on the other one space, I really struggled for a long time because I was essentially trying to build a business, not like building relationships, which was more I, I feel is one of my strongest areas. So I was trying to go against what generally works best for me here.

00:21:50:18 - 00:21:57:15
Speaker 1
What about referral marketing? Have we not talked about that? You think it'd be important to share?

00:21:57:17 - 00:22:16:21
Speaker 2
I think, the one that I've kind of not, not so much talked about is that every single referral comes off the back of the conversation. Then what I mean by that is that it could be a conversation between you and your client, and it could be a conversation. You have a networking, it could be a conversation that other people have had.

00:22:16:23 - 00:22:41:09
Speaker 2
And then it ends up that they come and buy from you. Everything starts with a conversation. So in order to get more referrals, you need to be having more conversations and what I call productive conversations. And if you can focus on referral marketing efforts and really getting that in your head is that it's all about conversations that's going to really take your phone locks and efforts to the next level.

00:22:41:11 - 00:22:54:17
Speaker 1
It's pretty uncanny what you just said, because there's a pretty famous book out there for coaches, and it basically says no coaching relationship starts without a conversation.

00:22:54:19 - 00:22:56:02
Speaker 2
Okay.

00:22:56:04 - 00:23:32:04
Speaker 1
And that if I am a coach all the way, people really get to know me and my style is to have such a conversation. So you're reinforcing that conversation are key, that you've got to be willing to have conversations with a variety of sources. And that's kind of the hinge pin or what referral marketing is all about, how to have the right type of conversations, that referral in the results in rather, referrals on a consistent basis.

00:23:32:06 - 00:23:49:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, it is all about the conversations and depending on the size of your business, will depend on the types of conversations you have. So if you're a very, very large company, you need to build out those conversations at scale and you'll just get enough of those trials. If you're a smaller business or you're 1 to 1 coach, consultant, that sort of thing.

00:23:49:04 - 00:24:08:19
Speaker 2
Depending on the types of services or products that you provide, you might have them on a smaller scale, whereas 1 to 1 one conversation at a time. But then if you need to have more of those conversations as way to scale that up and just get those referrals coming in consistently and what consistently means for your business, because what's consistent for your business won't be the same for another.

00:24:08:21 - 00:24:18:15
Speaker 1
Gotcha here as you kind of reflect on this conversation, what closing thoughts or takeaways do you have for us?

00:24:18:17 - 00:24:41:18
Speaker 2
So I think for me, based on this conversation that we've had anyone that is listening to this and that, there's one particular part that really caught their attention. First, come and have a conversation with us about that. But I think then the other one as well is that if you're thinking that referral marketing is something you're not utilizing in your business enough and you think it might be a good thing, so it's just get started with it.

00:24:41:18 - 00:24:58:09
Speaker 2
The longer you wait, the more you can be left behind is something more. More businesses start to adopt it for a long time, and that environment is the great time that if you come in and you really utilize it, our marketing is you can get ahead of the curve because you're coming in at a time where it's not common, it's not something every single business do.

00:24:58:13 - 00:25:08:14
Speaker 2
Every single business wants referrals, but not everyone actually actively creates them for themselves. So if you come in and do that, you're going to be ahead of the competition. Essentially.

00:25:08:16 - 00:25:38:02
Speaker 1
Great guidance. Before we wrap up, I do have a question for the leaders in my audience, and that is why do people choose to follow your lead? Is it out of obligation or do they truly believe in your vision? Leadership is about clarity, confidence, and creating practical solutions that drive real results. As I've shared, I'm an executive coach and I help leaders achieve bottom line impact and inspire others to follow.

00:25:38:04 - 00:26:04:17
Speaker 1
And bench builders. We use fortune 500 insights to craft personalized strategies that drive meaningful progress. So lead with a vision that inspires not out of obligation, but from genuine belief. This is how you unlock your full potential. If you'd like to learn more, visit bench-builders.com and let's see how we can support your leadership journey. Gary, your insights have been invaluable.

00:26:04:17 - 00:26:06:22
Speaker 1
Thank you for joining us.

00:26:06:24 - 00:26:20:22
Speaker 2
My pleasure. Thank you for having me. And I love the questions that you asked me. And some of them really got me thinking. Some really got me thinking about them. My journey, which I loved. And, a couple of questions in that I don't get asked really often, so really appreciate it.

00:26:20:24 - 00:26:30:00
Speaker 1
You stress the importance of conversation. If listeners want to engage further with you and have such a conversation, what's the best way for them to reach out?

00:26:30:02 - 00:26:47:01
Speaker 2
So I think, there's a couple of platforms where I can reach out to me. So LinkedIn, Facebook, they're the social platforms that I predominantly use. So come to me there first, and then we can take the conversation wherever we need to remotely, so zoom through WhatsApp, whatever. But I think, yeah, through LinkedIn or Facebook will be a great way.

00:26:47:01 - 00:26:54:18
Speaker 2
And then if there's anyone that knows you personally, is that more than welcome to come to you and say, can you give me an introduction, Gary? And I'm sure you won't have to do that.

00:26:54:20 - 00:26:57:11
Speaker 1
Then I would. Gary, thank you.

00:26:57:17 - 00:26:59:01
Speaker 2
My pleasure.

00:26:59:03 - 00:27:10:18
Speaker 1
I also want to thank our subscribers for tuning in, and I hope that today's discussion provides some insights that help you get unstuck and on target.

00:27:11:22 - 00:27:15:22
Speaker 1
Thank you for joining us for this episode of Get Unstuck and on Target.

00:27:15:24 - 00:27:36:12
Speaker 1
I hope you gain insights to help you lead with competence and drive your organization forward. Remember it, Bench builders. We're committed to your success, your leadership excellence, and your strategic growth. If you've enjoyed our conversation today, please leave a review rate and subscribe to keep up with our latest episode.

00:27:36:21 - 00:27:40:21
Speaker 1
This show really grows when listeners like you share it with others.

00:27:40:20 - 00:27:44:08
Speaker 1
Who do you know? Who needs to hear what we talked about today?

00:27:44:17 - 00:27:51:22
Speaker 1
Until next time, I encourage you to stay. Focus on the target and continue to break new ground on your leadership path.