Ep163 Mike Wapner - How to Align Your Investments with Your Values

00:00:00:17 - 00:00:23:00
Mike O'Neill
Welcome back to Get Unstuck and on Target, I'm Mike O'Neil with Bench Builders. And whether we're working with supervisors to improve their people skills or to be coaching a leader one on one, getting leaders and companies unstuck is at the heart of everything we do. And that is exactly what this podcast is all about. Joining me is Mike Wagner.

00:00:23:02 - 00:00:49:23
Mike O'Neill
Mike is a financial advisor with Blue Lake Wealth Advisor. He helps his clients achieve the most important goals in their life while also aligning their money with the issues that they're passionate about. For example, many people have environmental or social justice issues they care a great deal about. So Mike shows them how they can align their investments with their values as part of a comprehensive financial plan.

00:00:50:00 - 00:00:51:16
Mike O'Neill
Welcome, Mike.

00:00:51:18 - 00:00:53:14
Mike Wapner
Thanks, Mike. Good to be here.

00:00:53:16 - 00:01:17:08
Mike O'Neill
You know, I was interested in bring you on a podcast for a couple of reasons. One, when I hear the term financial planning and when I talk to financial planners, it just seems to me that there is somewhat of a natural reluctance to go there by some people's part. So I would love to be able to learn a little more about you and what got you into this and how you help your clients with that reluctance.

00:01:17:10 - 00:01:41:06
Mike O'Neill
But then I've also I've been here a great deal about socially responsible investing and sustainability, and I kind of like to learn a little bit more about what that really looks like for an investor and how you kind of help investors align those things in a way that are kind of aligned with what is important to them. So let's start with how you got into what you do.

00:01:41:07 - 00:01:45:04
Mike O'Neill
What what was the path that brought you to this?

00:01:45:06 - 00:02:08:03
Mike Wapner
Well, I've had a few careers in my life, and just a while back when I was trying to decide what would be right at this point, my wife and I had actually been clients and a financial advisor for about 15 years at that time, and I realized we'd always felt very good about what they'd done for us. They really helped us understand where we were in our lives.

00:02:08:05 - 00:02:36:16
Mike Wapner
They helped us look forward and see what is it that we want to achieve over the long term and where are we on the path to get there. And I realized that being able to do that kind of things for other people would just be a really great thing to be able to do. Just from a personal goals perspective, to connect with people in that way, understand what's important to them, what they really are trying to do with their lives, what their priorities are, and help them get there.

00:02:36:18 - 00:02:55:12
Mike O'Neill
You know, Mike, you've been doing this for a while. I know you've had different careers that kind of led to this and you've married that background in that process. Mike, what do you find? Oftentimes, what might be natural triggers that prompts someone to reach out and say, Honey, talk to Mike?

00:02:55:14 - 00:03:16:22
Mike Wapner
Well, yeah, it's very, very situational. When people are ready to talk to a financial advisor, the and what I talk about is transitions. I mean, that's a sort of a good way to summarize it. When somebody is either going through a transition in their life or really thinking about a major transition to come, they tend to have questions.

00:03:16:24 - 00:03:36:22
Mike Wapner
And and the kind of questions that somebody like me can help them with. So starts with a simple such as, okay, I changed jobs, what should I do with my 41k, you know, so that that's kind of basic. So changing jobs, changing marital status either in or out. You know, a lot of a lot of kind of financial questions there.

00:03:36:22 - 00:04:00:17
Mike Wapner
But, you know, starting to get a little more complicated. It's okay. My kids are going to be going off to school in college in some number of years. How should I best be planning for that? And preparing financially or giving on the really big picture is how do I know if I'm on track to have the kind of retirement that I want to have, the kind of long term future that I envision for me and my family?

00:04:00:19 - 00:04:17:03
Mike Wapner
So it's having these questions about, you know, where they are and when they really are starting to look forward and say, okay, something, some things could be different there. Am I on that right path? That's that's what people ask questions I can help with.

00:04:17:05 - 00:04:41:11
Mike O'Neill
Yeah, I'm going to jump right in because you mentioned that what oftentimes is a trigger is some form of transition. If you would. I make an assumption, But it may be a wrong assumption, and that is that there may be some hesitancy to sit down and talk to somebody about this, because it seems so serious. It seems so potentially complicated.

00:04:41:13 - 00:04:52:03
Mike O'Neill
One, do you see that that's common, that there is maybe initial reluctance? I don't use that word too lightly, but hasn't seemed to maybe have this conversation.

00:04:52:05 - 00:05:29:17
Mike Wapner
Yeah, it's it goes even further back than that a little bit because it's like people don't even realize maybe that they should be having this conversation. They have these questions in their minds and they don't they don't appreciate that this is something they can work with people on to help them get through these issues. And it really goes back to most of us are brought up not talking about finance, but in many families, it's the attitude of the parents that your kids don't need to know anything about what money we have.

00:05:29:19 - 00:05:53:02
Mike Wapner
You know, if they say, you know, mom, dad, and how much money do you have? It's none of their business. And so there's not this is history. There's not even a cultural thing of sharing thoughts about money. And when it comes to external people. Yeah. I mean, you know, think about some of your closest friends, some, you know, close family members.

00:05:53:07 - 00:06:12:20
Mike Wapner
How many of them have you talked about your financial situation and your questions about whether you have enough money for things? So it's just not something that we normally do. So, you know, to get people even to the point of saying, well, maybe this this is something that I can get some help with, because I do realize I do have these questions.

00:06:12:20 - 00:06:41:09
Mike Wapner
And and what what it usually comes to is when there's something more specific and technical. Like, what are the tax implications of something or. I like I said, I know I have to save for college and what is the best program. So it's you know, what gets through that initial reluctance to use your word. But, you know, sort of just, you know, lack of motivation to to discuss these things, it's usually a very specific question.

00:06:41:11 - 00:06:48:19
Mike Wapner
And that's why, again, I talked about the transitions because of those transitions, It's when a lot of these questions start really piling up.

00:06:48:21 - 00:07:16:21
Mike O'Neill
You know, you mentioned transitions oftentimes might would trigger it, but it goes back further. You mentioned that there's in this might vary by cultures, but there is a kind of a strong reluctant to talk about money and how money actually works. As you know, I spent a number of years in H.R. leadership roles managing compensation plans, and those plans would pay some folks a lot of money.

00:07:16:23 - 00:07:46:15
Mike O'Neill
But the nature of the work that I did is I knew what everybody earned, but I had to keep that to myself. yeah. But I made an observation, and maybe this is perhaps bad science on my part, but I was surprised when I found that the extremely high earners oftentimes struggled with financial planning. They were making a lot of money, but they were spending a lot of money at the same time.

00:07:46:17 - 00:08:13:18
Mike O'Neill
And as I got to know particularly these folks, what I realized is that they grew accustomed to the high volume of income, but they also spent it. And it was not unusual that I would have a private conversation with a pretty high ranking individual in the organization to find out they had not taken the steps that others in the organization maybe much further down income wise, had already taken.

00:08:13:20 - 00:08:41:13
Mike O'Neill
And I think there's a misnomer also about financial planners. Some organizations, they kind of say we're looking for a net worth of X, and some people think, well, I'm not there, therefore I can't even go there. Can you give us some guidance there? At what point does one need to begin thinking, I really need to reach out to a mike and have this conversation?

00:08:41:13 - 00:08:46:05
Mike O'Neill
Do you need to be earning a lot of money to start that conversation?

00:08:46:07 - 00:09:21:19
Mike Wapner
No, because everybody has questions about things. And and that's you you kind of bring up a concern. Let's use that word that I have about my profession, because many people are very, very focused on the term as assets under management. And, you know, it's their businesses and their business models and how they need to earn as well. But yeah, it's typical for financial advisors to say, well, if I can manage at least the number is a half million dollars of your money, we can do some planning too.

00:09:21:21 - 00:09:44:02
Mike Wapner
But yeah, Mike, like you said, there are people who might not have that amount of money yet or, you know, they're actually plenty of people happy managing the estimates these days. You know, it's become for people who are interested, you know, very doable, but they still have questions about some things. And no, it does not require any certain level of income or assets.

00:09:44:04 - 00:10:11:15
Mike Wapner
I work with with young people that are I mean, you know, not necessarily straight out of college kind of thing, you know, but the people who've been out in the working world for five, ten years and really want to look forward and say, okay. Am I saving enough money? Am I investing it properly? Am I taking advantage of, you know, different opportunities that I might have given the kind of goals that I have longer term?

00:10:11:17 - 00:10:39:00
Mike Wapner
And there's most of the people in that kind of position haven't yet accumulated a half million dollars. So, yeah, it's very much there. There are questions that people have, and when they realize that finance can get complicated and they're willing to get a little bit into that complexity with some of these help that those are those are good times to talk to a financial advisor on it.

00:10:39:02 - 00:11:10:05
Mike Wapner
There are advisors, other advisors like me who will focus on planning and will do the planning independent of investment management. I'm happy to do either or both and, or. But yeah, there are others that do this as well. And you know, each have different cost structures, fee structures. So we'll do it on an hourly basis. So yeah, there's ways for people with questions to, to get engaged with somebody who would talk about these things for a living.

00:11:10:07 - 00:11:47:23
Mike O'Neill
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. We had this conversation in our first one on one. We met via LinkedIn. I got to know you, and that's why I concluded you be a great podcast guest because you differentiated the financial planning from investment management. They oftentimes are linked together and what you're saying is you can decouple that and do decouple that, whereas you could provide assistance in developing a financial plan separate from what will this money, how that be invested and the like.

00:11:48:00 - 00:12:02:15
Mike O'Neill
Can you just kind of walk us through. When you're working with a client on kind of the kind of developing a financial plan, what are those major things that kind of need to be addressed? One is building a financial plan.

00:12:02:17 - 00:12:29:00
Mike Wapner
Well, the first conversation I have with people before we even agree to work together, I asked them a lot of questions about their concerns and their goals. You know what? What what are those? What are those things that the big picture that they're really looking forward and really want to achieve? Is somebody want to start a business? You know, do is there somebody in the family that maybe has special needs that they have to be careful?

00:12:29:06 - 00:12:55:24
Mike Wapner
I mean, it could be so many different things. But what we learned, we learned about all these goals and plan and goals and concerns. And when we actually get started with and a planning engagement that's done in the context of those goals from a sort of quantitative, mechanical perspective, we start out with, okay, what's today's income expenses, assets, liabilities.

00:12:56:01 - 00:13:18:10
Mike Wapner
And then we project things forward. Okay. How do you see your income changing over time? And then we start throwing in those those goals or those concerns with. All right. Would you like to. Are you interested in that vacation home? And, you know, let's see if if there's room in the plan for that based on your other or other assumptions about income expenses?

00:13:18:12 - 00:13:48:03
Mike Wapner
Yeah, I have. I've been working with the couple was on the spouse's mother's it was probably going need some financial assistance in her later years. So we say all right let's let's include that there and see how things work through so that we get a feel for long term. Are you in good shape to the do the assets build and grow and are they there to satisfy those needs that we've identified over time?

00:13:48:05 - 00:14:13:00
Mike O'Neill
You know, Mike, I was very fortunate when I entered the corporate world and I was given opportunities and I stayed with the same company, but the company kept growing so I didn't have to leave the company to pursue bigger opportunities. That has to happen for me over a period of four alone. And so I could almost project progressions as I took on more and more responsibilities.

00:14:13:02 - 00:14:33:08
Mike O'Neill
But I probably am more of the exception in today's conversation. I know people change not only jobs at a more frequent basis, but they change careers. How do they go about trying to project something when they don't even know where they're going to be working a year or two from now?

00:14:33:10 - 00:14:56:23
Mike Wapner
Yeah, that it's it's a difficult thing, but those are the conversations we have around. Well, you know, if you want to do whatever in the in the longer term, if you want to have that available to you. Yeah. You're thinking about changing jobs, changing careers next year. Well, tell me, how much money do you think you can make doing this?

00:14:57:00 - 00:15:16:04
Mike Wapner
And and we'll see. You know, does that then lead to achievement of those goals? If those two assumptions that they have? Well, I think I can do this. This if those assumptions still don't add up. Well, we know right there that there's a problem of if somebody really doesn't know, but we take our best guess at the time.

00:15:16:06 - 00:15:52:14
Mike Wapner
But the thing is, financial planning is not necessarily just a plan that we work on and then we've we've put over on a shelf and that's it. And the ongoing relationship could be be in a few wins at a minimum. What you want to do is a couple of years later, go back and revisit that plan so that if you have made that career change, say two years later and you're in your little you're a year or two into it, you can see, well, we're my projections, my expectations by my hopes or the kind of income that it would provide.

00:15:52:16 - 00:16:20:02
Mike Wapner
Are they living up to what we said in the plan would be required to achieve the long term? If yes or no, great. If not, okay, let's let's really look at that plan and say, all right, you know, is this is this the way you want to continue? Because then we have to change things longer term or, you know, should we change the present system to really help ensure the longer term?

00:16:20:04 - 00:16:53:02
Mike Wapner
Or have you changed the longer term expectations so that that's the thing? So planning is really a process. What we can do today will certainly help reduce the uncertainty, you know, because yeah, we can't live with that uncertainty, but we want to be able to reduce the uncertainty, put some balance on it. But like with anything else, as you go forward, more things change and as major things change, including something like changing your career, you really want to revisit your your status and revisit those assumptions.

00:16:53:04 - 00:17:24:18
Mike O'Neill
You know, I can set up this conversation as bookends. We're going to talk not only about why financial planning is important, but also how that money is actually invested. And I may not be using the right terminology, sustainable and socially responsible investing. But the concept I think I get that for our viewers, for our listeners, can you kind of define what that actually means?

00:17:24:20 - 00:17:50:08
Mike Wapner
I will try. One of the challenges is that the terminology is a bit of a mess. There are there are no official definitions for any of the couple of dozen different words and terms and acronyms that are used out there, which causes problems because you get people using the same terms to mean different things. And obviously from a communication standpoint, that's terrible.

00:17:50:10 - 00:18:25:22
Mike Wapner
But what I generally try to focus on because I'm coming from the consumer side or I'm coming from the investor perspective and what I want to be able to do is help an investor who's interested align their money with their values. So the so the priority being know something they care about how how can they invest to to connect with those issues that they care about either in a positive or a negative way.

00:18:25:24 - 00:18:52:20
Mike Wapner
And there are actually different strategies for doing that kind of different investment strategies and which is another one of the difficulties in the field, because a lot of people might believe there is a single sustainable investing strategy or socially responsible investing strategy. But but there's really not because like most things in life, they're trade offs and it depends on priorities and what different people prioritize.

00:18:52:22 - 00:19:17:24
Mike Wapner
And based on those priorities, you can have different ways of and connecting to investments, some of which some of those strategies could be in direct conflict with each other. And so just again, if if people don't realize that they could be looking at different things, I would think it's one thing. That's where we get a lot of people saying, this doesn't make sense, this is garbage, this is crap, this is greenwashing.

00:19:18:01 - 00:19:45:14
Mike Wapner
Just because it's not not internally consistent. But again, without having a a better understanding of what is really going on, what the options are, it's going to be difficult to see that. And I'm aware of that. I know this field is still under development and it's you know, it's imperfect. There are tradeoffs, but there is so much more information and so many more investment options available now than even ten years ago.

00:19:45:16 - 00:19:52:20
Mike Wapner
But just because it's not perfect doesn't mean that we we can't get engaged with.

00:19:52:22 - 00:20:18:21
Mike O'Neill
You know, like you mentioned, there's so much information available now that I would contend it can almost be overwhelming of all your choices. Is that part of what you do for your clients? You try to help them experience a less overwhelm and just kind of to the best of your ability, kind of lay out their options and then they choose what seems to align best for them?

00:20:18:23 - 00:20:42:22
Mike Wapner
Yeah, at a high level, yes. Yes. Some people might come in and overwhelm, but it's really more common. People come in not knowing how to start because they may have that interest or they've heard, well I can sort of guide my investments somehow, but they don't know what that means. They don't know how to start. So that so that's a that's really worth trying.

00:20:42:24 - 00:21:17:19
Mike Wapner
And for those people. Yeah, well, let me understand what are the values, what are your priorities? And. Yes, and then I will offer different kinds of investment vehicles that I believe line up with that I am first and foremost a financial advisor and I believe in a well-diversified portfolio and any of the sustainable, socially responsible, environmentally friendly and whatever terms any of the investing I do fits into that portfolio.

00:21:17:21 - 00:21:43:05
Mike Wapner
But like I said, there's a lot more available now. It is now possible. There are so many options for being able to do those things within large company US category or within a international or developed markets category or within a a Pan's fixed income category. And so as they learn people's priorities, they say, Hey, how about how about this type of investment?

00:21:43:10 - 00:22:16:07
Mike Wapner
And we can use this as part of that, you know, part of that segment of your allocation and not just have a a generic S&P 500 fund. Know, we can we can adjust that in different ways. So, yeah, it's it's for the people who are coming in overwhelmed it's really the same thing. It's they have maybe started seeing that there's all these different things going on and they don't have enough knowledge to be able to contextualize and see where they fit into a larger plan.

00:22:16:09 - 00:22:28:01
Mike Wapner
And so providing that context I think helps there too, because that's where these kind of things fit in. I can evaluate which of those matches better.

00:22:28:03 - 00:22:55:20
Mike O'Neill
Now, you use the term greenwashing a few minutes ago, and I'm not sure I know what that means. It's entirety. But before I go there, let me ask the question. When I go to a company's website and I try to read about the things that are important to them, I inevitably get to some section where you see and read language about some of the things we're kind of talking about and.

00:22:55:22 - 00:23:05:18
Mike Wapner
Like over 95% of our fortune of S&P 500 produces an annual sustainability report. So yeah, you've seen some of those.

00:23:05:20 - 00:23:20:20
Mike O'Neill
So I've seen them, but I don't know if I'm convinced that what I'm reading is in in actuality, how do you help folks like me? Who's maybe a little bit skeptical of what you read?

00:23:20:22 - 00:23:52:05
Mike Wapner
Well, well, I fortunately, there are a lot of other people reading this stuff and evaluating it. And so what I do is rely to a certain extent on some of these organizations that are doing what I loosely say is reading and writing, where they will look at company by company and see how they are, what they're saying and how they are performing along a broad number of factors.

00:23:52:07 - 00:24:34:18
Mike Wapner
We can't have this conversation without me throwing in the term ESG, the acronym, which stands for Environmental, Social and Governance. Yes, I don't use that because that is probably the most overused, undefined term. You know, in this it is part of the the finance industry and unfortunately has become very politically charged. But the thing is, there are a number of factors that would fit under the E or under the SE or under the G that these organizations are looking at and seeing how company by company of these these companies are are doing under these various factors coming up with ratings and then ranking them in different ways.

00:24:34:20 - 00:25:09:07
Mike Wapner
Now the good thing is that there's a lot of companies, a lot of organizations. I try to just use the term organizations to try to separate from companies, which are the companies being evaluated. So a lot of organizations doing this kind of thing, that's good. The the tougher thing is that each one of them, as what they believe is the best methodology and the best information sources, which means that it can be very different from each other, which is one reason why people say all this crap, because there's you could take two different organizations ratings of the same company.

00:25:09:09 - 00:25:29:13
Mike Wapner
It can be different and like, okay, what am I supposed to do with that? But this is where I get back to the old cliche Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Okay? Understand that these different organizations are looking at companies, but understand also what these organizations are prioritizing. One thing where are they getting their information?

00:25:29:13 - 00:26:07:03
Mike Wapner
Because they're not just reading reports. A lot of them say, you know, we interview people in the company and also interview know, customers and suppliers and competitors to really understand not just what they're saying, but what they're actually doing. And different organizations are doing this in different ways, focusing on different factors. And this is what I try to bring, which is not just looking at what the companies are saying, but trying to bring in what the rest of the financial ecosystem in this case is saying about a company.

00:26:07:05 - 00:26:33:22
Mike Wapner
And this is also where it gets back to priorities. There's this, for example, an organization that is focused on carbon and because of climate change and they just evaluate companies on kind of their carbon footprint for some things that are going to be important. But there's there's dozens of other things that you could look at environmentally, socially or under the governance of Rella that also could be important to some people.

00:26:33:24 - 00:26:52:17
Mike Wapner
And that pure carbon rating they actually even give them will give them letter grades might not be enough. So so again, it's understanding where the different information is coming from, how is being presented, and then lining it up with what somebody cares.

00:26:52:19 - 00:27:24:14
Mike O'Neill
You know, we thus far have kind of touched on why financial planning is important. We've kind of touched on the myriad of choices that people have if they really want to invest in a way that are aligned with some values that may vary widely. You know, Mike, as you kind of reflect on your career in this industry, what do you find that most people kind of get wrong when it comes to this idea of financial planning and or investing?

00:27:24:16 - 00:27:55:18
Mike Wapner
Well, I mean, on the investment side of the difficulty is people connecting their investments to their goals. Some some people might start out saying, well, I want to do the best I can and you're managing my money. Get me the best return you can. Well, the reason I start out with the planning is because I need to know the purpose of the money before I know how to invest the money.

00:27:55:20 - 00:28:15:01
Mike Wapner
And if you're just a huge, you know, easy example is, is it retirement money or 30, 40 years from now or is it I have to make the down payment on my condo next year with this money. So, you know, pretty clear you're going to want to do different investments there. And there's a lot of things in between.

00:28:15:03 - 00:28:48:12
Mike Wapner
And you also understand that the purpose of the money really should drive how the money is invested and that that's something that people don't necessarily appreciate enough because now we see everybody else in the world getting rich and, you know, investing in in Bitcoin and know, how can I get rich, too? You know, sorry, I have to throw this anecdote by my older daughter was in college at this point and I got a I got a text from her one morning.

00:28:48:14 - 00:29:24:12
Mike Wapner
This was right when there was this big blow up about, you know, these is company, is everybody getting on these companies and what was GameStop was on. And her comment was, why can't I get rich like everyone else on the Internet? So it's it's a disconnect between what investing for the long term connected to what you're trying to do in the long term and what you see externally about how do I how do I make it that big on some investment or how what's the best thing for me to do here?

00:29:24:17 - 00:29:58:13
Mike Wapner
Or should I, you know, this one, your next one under this company or that is for me somebody who, you know, really emphasize the planning investments need to be tied to it, not necessarily whole plan, but certainly to what's going on in my life and what my try to do that for reinvestment that on the planning side I it's really just people I said before people's lives are complicated finances get complicated.

00:29:58:13 - 00:30:27:20
Mike Wapner
And some people I've had people say to me, if I think about it too much, it stresses me out. So I just don't think about it. Now, for some people that that is a personal financial strategy. I don't happen to believe it's the best one. And so what I encourage people is that I'm very much a knowledge is power kind of guy and say, yeah, well if you if we look at this stuff, first of all, we can get rid of some of that complexity.

00:30:27:20 - 00:30:58:11
Mike Wapner
We can help you understand, you know, what, what is really going on, what kind of options you have and the implications of those. And yeah, in some cases maybe the truth might hurt a little bit or it might be a little disappointing as opposed to the fantasy you could have if you didn't know the truth. But ultimately, I mean, I certainly believe ultimately you're better off with that understanding because then you can be in control as opposed to just feeling like you're at the whims of the economy and and the financial markets or get a better view around.

00:30:58:12 - 00:31:05:15
Mike Wapner
Now, there are ways you can have control over what you're doing, and that's what planning really enables.

00:31:05:17 - 00:31:21:09
Mike O'Neill
It's very clear not only do you know what you're talking about, you have a real heart for what is it that we're describing that comes through loud and clear. If folks want to reach out to you, what's the best way for them to connect with you?

00:31:21:09 - 00:31:55:09
Mike Wapner
Mike Yeah, well, number one is email and my email address is first, initial, last name. So that's m w a piercing Peter and is a Nancy e r at blue Lake wealth dot com as blue, the color lake, the body, water and wealth the money. So chapter at Blue Lake welcome and you can find me on on LinkedIn my web is there and so yeah a couple different ways those are the best way to reach.

00:31:55:11 - 00:32:08:21
Mike O'Neill
Well it's on LinkedIn that you and I first connected. I anticipate that you would be able to offer insights that would be enlightening. You have. Thank you for sharing those insights with us today.

00:32:08:23 - 00:32:14:10
Mike Wapner
You're welcome. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to do so. I hope it's been helpful to some people.

00:32:14:12 - 00:32:36:21
Mike O'Neill
You know, I've got a question for our listeners. Are people following you because they have to or because they want to? You know, as a leadership coach, I work with executives who have a track record of success behind them, but they're now they're now feeling stuck. They're frustrated because they're finding that with each level of success that follows that bar, it's set even higher.

00:32:36:23 - 00:32:59:23
Mike O'Neill
They're discouraged because what worked in the past is no longer even working. So my clients, despite all of those successes in the past, their lacking the clarity and the confidence to make the decisions needed to get to that next level. So if Feeling stuck describes you or someone you know, let's talk head over to bench dash builder Scott to schedule a call.

00:33:00:00 - 00:33:08:16
Mike O'Neill
So I want to thank you again for joining us and I hope you have picked up on some quick wins from Mike that will help you get unstuck and on target.