Ep171 Dr. Les Cole - Is This Controversial Drug the Cure for Anxiety, Depression, and PTSD?

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Dr. Les Cole
function of our brain is to match whatever I experience is going on in reality right now with the patterns of my past.

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Dr. Les Cole
we end up operating out of habituated patterns of behavior.

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Mike O'Neill
welcome to Get Unstuck and On Target, the weekly podcast that offers senior leaders insights and strategies to not only lead with competence and vision,

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Mike O'Neill
but also to achieve groundbreaking results.

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Mike O'Neill
I'm your host, Mick O'Neill. I coach top level executives on the power of ethical leadership to forge teams to be as united as they are effective

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Mike O'Neill
in each episode.

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Mike O'Neill
Join me for insightful conversations with leaders just like you, providing practical advice to help you get unstuck and propel you and your company forward.

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Mike O'Neill
Let's get started.

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Mike O'Neill
Joining me is Doctor Les Cole. He is the owner and lead therapist of Ethos Behavioral Services. Doctor Cole is also the coauthor of The Ketamine Effect A Practical Guide to Understanding Ketamine Treatment and Your Inner Healing Journey. It's this topic of ketamine that I'm most interested in because I had never even heard that term before a few weeks ago, so I'm looking forward to that conversation.

00:01:26:24 - 00:01:28:21
Mike O'Neill
Welcome, les.

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Dr. Les Cole
Thank you Mike. It's really good to be here.

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Mike O'Neill
You now are a published author on a topic that I know very little about. It kind of caught my attention due to national headlines with the loss of a major celebrity. But for those who don't know what we're talking about, what is ketamine and its treatment? And how is ketamine

00:01:53:01 - 00:01:56:22
Mike O'Neill
being used by professionals like you?

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Dr. Les Cole
Well, I appreciate the opportunity. It's to your point, it is relatively new, at least in terms of the public landscape. it is it has recently, of course, with the passing of Matthew Perry, become more of a common, home acknowledgment. And, it's better ketamine as a, molecule has been around for a long time.

00:02:20:24 - 00:02:55:00
Dr. Les Cole
Probably, the start of ketamine. Most effectively, it was being used during the Vietnam War. and at high doses. Ketamine is an anesthetic. and so the unique thing about it, as an anesthetic, it does not affect the respiratory center. So a person can be put to sleep, lose consciousness, but you don't have to intubate, which, of course, gave it a lot of value in the field in terms of, combat injuries, being able to transport people who would otherwise be in just, unremitting pain.

00:02:55:00 - 00:03:23:12
Dr. Les Cole
And so to be able to anesthetize them without having to worry about the needs to intubate, as ketamine began to be used more and more, some connections began being made kind of collateral connections of, well, this person had hip surgery and, you know, they were an elderly person, had quite a bit of co-occurring depression. And as, the person began to heal and unfold, what's began to realize is, you know, a lot of the depression symptoms have started to abate.

00:03:23:14 - 00:03:49:01
Dr. Les Cole
And so it's really been strongly studied since the 70s. needless to say, with the whole psychedelic movement in the 70s, in the 80s and Timothy O'Leary, it kind of got back. Bernard. but the research is going on, and there's a lot of incredibly, valid research now around ketamine in the role of treatment resistant depression, anxiety and also PTSD.

00:03:49:03 - 00:04:15:19
Dr. Les Cole
there's some emerging research that indicates that it may be really a significant contributor to the reduction in addicted behavior, such as gambling, alcohol, drugs, etc.. So it's a widely researched molecule that is just increasingly I mean, almost every day now you're finding an article that is a, study derivative that talks about the impact in those areas of the ketamine treatment.

00:04:15:21 - 00:04:45:06
Mike O'Neill
You know, less, as you know, listeners to this podcast typically are described as leaders. These are decision makers. Some of these decision makers are making decisions regarding, the the medical benefits for their employees to include mental health. We jumped right into ketamine and the whole notion of mental health. And you mentioned depression. you've been doing this for a while, right?

00:04:45:06 - 00:04:56:00
Mike O'Neill
But it's is mental health as a topic, something that, in your opinion, is getting more airplay in a healthy way.

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Dr. Les Cole
Co Covid uniquely, I think really contributed to that more airplay. Mike. there's still a stigma, with mental health. It's just very disappointing. But it's better now. you know, some of the, the movie given by the insurance companies during Covid towards virtual access to therapy is really moved some barriers. so I do think over the last five years, it is most certainly become more mainstream.

00:05:25:04 - 00:05:52:08
Dr. Les Cole
it has become less, negative to talk about. We've had athletes, you know, we've had stories we about a lot of significant, movers and shakers come out and talk about their mental health pilgrimages. So I it is more in the forefront and it is more acceptable. There's still a huge stigma, though, when it comes to the workplace, military, etc., because of, you know, the, the old kind of belief in mental health challenges.

00:05:52:10 - 00:06:31:06
Mike O'Neill
You've mentioned it, Covid opened up some opportunities for people to have access to, but it probably also contributed to, more mental health issues less. You have a fascinating background, and I didn't really properly introduce you, but in terms of the what led you to what you're doing now, you have not only, a masters in Divinity, but you also have a doctorate in psychology, in theology from the Candler School of Theology, which is part of Columbia, Theological Seminary.

00:06:31:08 - 00:06:46:07
Mike O'Neill
and my question for you is in your practice and your working with patients, how have you been able to marry what may have been a pursuit and or a passion to your current way of mental health treatment?

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Dr. Les Cole
You know, Mike, for full transparency, this this entire pilgrimage that I've been on, I really got initiated when I returned from, the Vietnam War, as a young guy and went over there with all kinds of, you know, real God country apple pie, belief system and, encountered experiences that just shattered my world. Yeah. And, when I, when I came home was I can honestly say, of course we didn't really we weren't quite clued in to PTSD at that time.

00:07:19:07 - 00:07:38:03
Dr. Les Cole
retrospectively, I think I checked all the boxes, but, you know, it was a scramble for me. I had to figure out a way that. Okay, I'm back now. How do I survive? I had a two year old son, young married guy, getting ready to discharge. And, you know, when I started my undergraduate program at Texas Tech, I was stationed in Lubbock, Texas.

00:07:38:03 - 00:08:03:13
Dr. Les Cole
Upon my return from Southeast Asia, I thought I'd get a really sweet assignment. And I got Lubbock, Texas. great, great people. Some of the ugliest territory in the world. But, tech was cheap to go to. So I put together, back then was called a bachelors of General Studies. And I had majors in psychology, sociology, theology, philosophy and anthropology.

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Mike O'Neill
Goodness. All the ologies.

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Dr. Les Cole
Well, all the ologies. I thought, you know, maybe I can get a grip on this thing called being human, looking at it, all these different facets. And so my love for an interest in psychology and theology and spirituality kind of rolled. And, you know, my own personal pilgrimage towards, healing was also deeply embedded in that. So, you know, did my master's degree in theology, served churches for 20 years and did my private practice on the side, in 86, moved to Atlanta to go to Emory and Columbia to do the dual degree in, theology and spirituality, and then went into flip that went into full time practice in 91, feeling like that

00:08:47:13 - 00:09:06:13
Dr. Les Cole
was just a, you know, a better use of my sense of call, like, and so since then, I've been doing, therapy in different manifestations and, you know, I'm old enough now long enough in the tooth and been doing this behavioral health mental health thing long enough that I can tell you there's been at least 5 or 6.

00:09:06:15 - 00:09:31:22
Dr. Les Cole
Oh, this is it in my career. and none of them were it. They were good and were contributors. but one of the real frustrating things about, the work I have done is, it's a slow can be a slow slog, towards health and wellness. And also it can be very, you know, you can have a reduction in symptoms, but you really don't have a change in life.

00:09:31:22 - 00:10:11:20
Dr. Les Cole
And when I ran across the data and research on ketamine and then what I've seen since I've been utilizing ketamine in my practice, it, I would frame it. It's the difference from addressing treatment towards the reduction of symptoms, to treatment, towards the healing of the causal components. And so it's just radically different. And so my my dad, your long winded answer to your question, how I got to where I'm at right now is it's really been my personal pilgrimage that is also driven, figuring that, you know, it's most uniquely individual may be, most generally applicable.

00:10:11:22 - 00:10:35:14
Mike O'Neill
You know, you made a comment, a slow slog, and that even listen to the word, it kind of embodies this kind of the concept. I don't know if this is part of what you are. Fine. But this is what I wrote down regarding your book, and it reads, do you feel like you've tried everything to heal your trauma, depression, or anxiety?

00:10:35:18 - 00:11:05:22
Mike O'Neill
But nothing works long term? Do you find yourself searching for answers but feel like an invisible force is holding you back for a more profound healing? If so, this book is for you. The ketamine effect will show you how to break free from your change resistant mindset, with or without treatment. And what caught my attention about that less is that the nature of mental health, so often the treatment is for the person going through.

00:11:06:00 - 00:11:34:13
Mike O'Neill
It may feel like a slow slog. and things may or may not be working. You're introducing me. You're introducing our listeners to that, which is new. Ketamine strikes me as something that probably has caught on and part because maybe what's worked in the past hasn't continued to work. how long have you been using ketamine in your practice?

00:11:34:15 - 00:12:27:14
Dr. Les Cole
So my partner, Tim Gannon, who's the coauthor with me, combined, we've probably been in the ketamine world at one level or another for seven years. well over 5 or 600 clients in that period of time. So we've had a, a broad exposure as well as study of that molecule and its impact. initially we just worked with folks who had multiple failed treatment endeavors in terms of treatment of depression, anxiety and PTSD, treatment resistant depression and anxiety, PTSD and the impact was just so remarkable that, you know, probably two years ago began to loosen, the criteria for, admission first and, so we have seen pretty remarkable changes.

00:12:27:14 - 00:12:29:05
Dr. Les Cole
Mike.

00:12:29:07 - 00:12:36:10
Mike O'Neill
You know, I failed to ask. I really don't know. Ketamine. how is it administered? What is it?

00:12:36:12 - 00:13:03:07
Dr. Les Cole
So it's a molecule that can be administered in a couple of ways. it can be administered to an IV. our practice has a collaboration with, doctor t Tau. He's an anesthesiologist. and so folks in there, some some medical reasons, certain heart conditions, certain liver conditions would require more medical management of the administration of the molecule.

00:13:03:09 - 00:13:30:13
Dr. Les Cole
So, Doctor Todd, will administer I.V.. There's also I am, which is just an injection. both I am and IV are virtually immediate in their onset of impact. and, with the IVs, once the IV starts, the impact of the molecule is felt. As soon as the I.V. is stopped, then virtually. It's like a light switch.

00:13:30:15 - 00:13:54:22
Dr. Les Cole
I am as much the same way the body, metabolizes it in a different kind of way. And then the last way is through tabs. These are slowly dissolving tablets that are swished around in the oral cavity for 15 minutes, 12 to 15 minutes. the molecule absorbs sublingual into the mucosal membrane. and so the onset is more slow in effect.

00:13:54:24 - 00:14:19:20
Dr. Les Cole
it less tends to be less immediate in terms of the steepness of the experience. a little slower coming out. You'd be a little groggy for a little while coming out. Typical experience with the tabs in terms of the ketamine impact itself. Pretty dependable across people, different sizes and experiences, right? At 101. Right at an hour and 20 minutes to an hour and 30 minutes, and then the effect is over.

00:14:19:22 - 00:14:45:21
Dr. Les Cole
The interesting thing about ketamine, compared to the other psychedelics in this area, is that ketamine is an internal experience. and so, you know, you wear, earphones with specifically chosen music for the experience. There's an eye mask that you wear if you're comfortable with that, part of the reason for that is you become so sincerely acute that light is really bright, sound is really loud.

00:14:45:21 - 00:15:08:05
Dr. Les Cole
So being able to kind of deadly interventions from outside disruptions is part of why we do that. and, you know, so the experience is very internal. If for any reason during the experience you would need to use the restroom. Well, let's say you could sit up in your chair, take the mask off, take the earphones off. I mean, you're not going to see like, elephants coming out the wall.

00:15:08:11 - 00:15:33:12
Dr. Les Cole
It's not that kind of psychedelic experience. It's all what's inside of us. And we walk to the restroom, use the restroom, carry out a conversation just like you would normally come back, sit down earphones, I'm asked. Lay back in the chair, back in the experience like that. So it's a very different experience than, for example, psilocybin, which is a 6 to 8 hour trip.

00:15:33:14 - 00:15:37:10
Dr. Les Cole
that once you're on it, you just hang on and go.

00:15:37:12 - 00:16:05:02
Mike O'Neill
So I'm going to show my ignorance here as a H.R. Leader managing benefits. And I would be working with carriers and alike, and we would look at what type of things are covered by, quote, insurance or not. I'm going to make the assumption that this treatment is not currently recognized as a traditional treatment. Is does insurance typically cover this or typically does not?

00:16:05:04 - 00:16:32:24
Dr. Les Cole
Typically, you're spot on. It does not. it is an approved but off label use of ketamine. the really good news is I just read an article yesterday that. Tim, do you know any my coauthor sent me that it looks very optimistic that by the end of this calendar year, MDMA will be receiving FDA approval. And it's a similar molecule to ketamine, which would then put it in the position to be able to be reimbursed.

00:16:33:01 - 00:17:02:13
Dr. Les Cole
And it's one of the unfortunate things, you know, the insurance world understandably move slowly. but when you look at, let's say, just the cost of, serotonin selective re-up, a take inhibitor on a monthly basis for a year. I mean, that's those tend to be antidepressants, chemicals that people around for a lifetime. And what we've seen with the ketamine and MDMA is a cessation of symptoms.

00:17:02:15 - 00:17:16:13
Dr. Les Cole
you know, people just get better. And so there's an awful lot in the pipeline right now. I think the next 3 to 5 years, we're going to see radical changes in the treatment of those, what we used to think of as mental disorders.

00:17:16:15 - 00:17:32:06
Mike O'Neill
It's shown considerable promise, in terms of a treatment or sessions, what is the typical number of sessions that people need to have before they see the appreciable improvement?

00:17:32:08 - 00:17:54:14
Dr. Les Cole
So there's a couple kinds of treatment modalities that have emerged over the last several years. There are a number of places where you can, they're called I.V. clinics. You go to the I.V. clinics, you get 45 minute infusion, you go home. the the good news about that is you absolutely get the impact. The molecule which is a positive impact on symptomology.

00:17:54:16 - 00:18:24:06
Dr. Les Cole
The problem with it is that the wonderful thing about ketamine is what we know from research is it creates a neurological environment where there are new neural pathways that emerge that are neophyte, you know, our our brain wires together, what fires together, wires together. So behaviors become habituated because of neurological wiring. These are new metaphorical wires that become available that are not dedicated to old patterns of behavior.

00:18:24:06 - 00:18:50:14
Dr. Les Cole
So if we do the work with that, that's what the ketamine assisted psychotherapy is. Then we'll be able to utilize those towards new patterns of thinking, believing, behaving, etc.. if you don't, if you just do the like the I.V., only you're going to have symptom reduction is as if taking, the SSRI, but the impact will erode over 72 hours.

00:18:50:16 - 00:19:31:22
Dr. Les Cole
And so you're really not being able to maximize what I think is the long term benefit of ketamine. And that is probably changing the neurology. And with that, the way we see life. and so, it, we start out with a bundle of four services. Most of our folks start with the tabs because the tabs are a little less intense and experience a little bit more of the experience is recall or more at the end of the experience, which is the very core of what we utilize to begin to maximize those new neural pathways.

00:19:31:24 - 00:20:01:08
Dr. Les Cole
we do four sessions. First session is really kind of a dose. Each session. Now they will have a medical exam and dosage will be prescribed. But the typical first dosage somewhere between 50 and 150. But we don't know. And that's based on height, weight and physical condition. But know like I'm I'm six to about 230 pounds. So a, a prescription dosage for me would be about 400mg at 150mg.

00:20:01:10 - 00:20:23:21
Dr. Les Cole
whole, I mean, whoa. so I'm very sensitive. So we use that first session to kind of get a feel for the individual, and then we can tie trade up as we go along in those four session, the first four sessions at the end of that. And this is just a WAG mic, I would say somewhere around 40 to 45% of folks, that's it.

00:20:23:23 - 00:20:48:06
Dr. Les Cole
They do their four sessions, they have had significant breakthroughs. They're sustainable and they go on. Other folks will go ahead and do more treatment depending on how the symptomology and the treatments unfolding. You know, some folks come back once a quarter, once a year. just depends on how their their mood is going and how they feel like their, treatment is unfolding less.

00:20:48:06 - 00:21:27:13
Mike O'Neill
As you know, one of the things I do with clients, I am an executive coach, and I'm very careful when I'm working with a client that if a topic comes up that is more suited for therapy, that's not who I am. That's not what I'm trained to do. And I'm, very mindful that if that's what is needed to make sure that that happens, acknowledging, my bias in this conversation, my bias is I think mental health has been, kept out of normal conversations for far too long.

00:21:27:15 - 00:22:04:00
Mike O'Neill
In my experience as an HR leader, I've seen the impact of or mental health and how it impacts individuals, families, organizations, companies, communities. And I am comforted that we are at least willing to talk about this more. You know, we're recording this, episode via zoom, and you mentioned that Covid opened up the world to access to well-trained therapists kind of want to talk about therapy and the training that therapists go through.

00:22:04:06 - 00:22:41:21
Mike O'Neill
One thing I've become keenly aware is how robust the certification is for mental health professionals. I would tell you my bias up front when I learn what a trained therapist has to do and the amount of time it requires, it's staggering. we both are speaking from Georgia. This might vary by states, but for those who don't know the person who they're meeting with their license, what type of training is that person undergoing to put them in a position to help?

00:22:41:23 - 00:23:13:22
Dr. Les Cole
There's some nuance of difference, but in general, you know, you have to have a four year undergraduate degree that has a lot of psychology, need to have some statistics. and then you need to have a master's program. Master's programs can run from 2 to 3 years. And once you have a qualifying qualifying master's program in psychology, counseling and associated field, you become eligible for what's called an associates license.

00:23:13:24 - 00:23:50:06
Dr. Les Cole
An associate licensed person has to be under the supervision of a certified professional counseling supervisor for a minimum of two maximum of three years, thousand. Our contact hours a year, 35 hours of continuing education every year and then pass a nationwide exam. that is focused on efficiency and mastery of your field. So it is I mean, it is it is grueling.

00:23:50:08 - 00:24:16:16
Dr. Les Cole
and it's it's tough. I mean, it is really tough. It's hard to find jobs as an associate because that works not reimbursable by insurance companies. So it is it is a grind. And that's part of why we have such a shortage of mental health therapists. But they are, as a field, incredibly trained and supervised so that their practice, by the time they're fully licensed, you should have somebody who is really competent in their field.

00:24:16:18 - 00:24:43:11
Mike O'Neill
I appreciate you sharing that. I wanted our viewers and listeners to have confidence that if they or someone they know or love reach out, that if they're working with a licensed individual, they have been through extensive training, you know, less as we've talked through, we've only scratched the surface of what ketamine is and how it kind of works.

00:24:43:13 - 00:25:08:10
Mike O'Neill
and I know that your introduction started about seven years ago, and it's just now beginning to capture people's attention like mine. and you are encourage that they based on your comment that there could be a more acceleration and acceptance. maybe not ketamine itself, but a close relative of, the it. Needless to say, you just coauthored a book.

00:25:08:10 - 00:25:23:01
Mike O'Neill
This book has just been released. what have you found? For those who have read the book and have reached out to you directly, what questions have you been receiving that surprised you?

00:25:23:03 - 00:25:50:12
Dr. Les Cole
You know, I don't think they've surprised me. It, Well, it's probably biased confirmation. It kind of illuminated. What? What really drove the book. I mean, one of my biases. And I've been the mental health world a long time, and I've been doing this almost 50, 50 years. is that for, in my opinion, far too long this has been, you know, mental health therapy has been the domain of the guru.

00:25:50:14 - 00:26:22:10
Dr. Les Cole
You go, you have somebody who's got all the knowledge and then answers and, you kind of sit at the feet and they help, help you get better. the reality of it is, you know, it. For the folks who listen to this, if if you go look for a therapist in your first session, if you don't connect, if it's not an engaging relationship, go find somebody else most of the day to suggest what heals.

00:26:22:11 - 00:26:46:05
Dr. Les Cole
I mean, there was a study done back in the late 80s, all of the different therapeutic interventions, as well as a couple other interventions as to what was best and what came out. The top of the list was Oprah show. Wow. That's well that says a lot. And so, you know, it is just not a matter of here's the information.

00:26:46:07 - 00:27:14:06
Dr. Les Cole
It is a collegial process. We are a team. And so I think what I find is these people and this is just breaks my heart for folks who've reached out to me, have done everything they've been told to do. And it's Groundhog Day. And so what little piece of that I can play and Tim can play in ending that story of Groundhog Day.

00:27:14:06 - 00:27:39:08
Dr. Les Cole
That's our goal. We want it's there to be equipped. You can be your own guru. You can manage your own sense of well-being. There are tools that you can learn. You can do. There's approaches and you can absolutely. Therapy should not, in most cases, should not be a lifelong pursuit. I think sadly, it's become a business model in some places.

00:27:39:10 - 00:28:07:22
Mike O'Neill
well said. Now, doing what you do has been a lifelong pursuit for you to provide care. You've got 50 years of knowledge. If you were to kind of reflect on that time, can you share an example where either you or a client got stuck? And this has been really the theme, the whole conversation so far, but maybe a specific example where someone got stuck and when that happened, what did it take to get unstuck?

00:28:07:24 - 00:28:33:24
Dr. Les Cole
Well, I think in some ways, Mike, and tell me if this is too gentle, but, I think there is a way in which all of us are stuck in some area. you know, all behavior, the the function of our brain is to match whatever I experience is going on in reality right now with the patterns of my past.

00:28:34:01 - 00:28:54:14
Dr. Les Cole
And so depending on how much struggle I've had in childhood and adolescence, how I've had to adjust the fit of the relationship early on, how much I've had to adapt, for what experience of survival. And by survival I don't. It feels life and death. When I'm five, and if I don't have a connection with a nurturing or protective figure.

00:28:54:16 - 00:29:21:24
Dr. Les Cole
And so we all develop these patterns. And unfortunately, for the most part, we end up operating out of habituated patterns of behavior. Yeah, that's a reactive model to life. It's kind of walking around in a daydream that instead of really experiencing what's going. And your leaders and all the folks in your, core that that are solid leaders, what they've been able to do is expand their horizons, experience in the moment.

00:29:22:01 - 00:29:47:03
Dr. Les Cole
They're experiencing what's going on right now and probably have a good awareness of what their internal experience is and how it either matches or doesn't match with what's going on right here and now. And it you know, once I can catch my shtick, because when we when we have that habituated pattern of behavior and you can look at the political scene right now, there's a lot of examples we could talk about.

00:29:47:03 - 00:30:11:07
Dr. Les Cole
And folks who you can, you know, they're very dependable in terms of how they're going to respond in a situation. You know, the last time that, you know, we, you know, with, with with my spouse, certain things trigger me. and when that happens, I'm going to respond in predictable ways. Why? Because I have laid down a neurological pattern of interpreting the moment.

00:30:11:07 - 00:30:35:08
Dr. Les Cole
So what I'm experiencing when I'm not awake isn't what's going on with you and me right now. What I experience is what is going on with you and I right now, is that it is the pattern of what I understand it to be may or may not have anything to do with what you're. It's like, what is he talking about?

00:30:35:10 - 00:30:57:05
Dr. Les Cole
You know what? Let's. You look really great today. What will you tell him? I don't I usually. What's wrong man I mean something up here and you going what is up with less? That's a habituated pattern. But when I say that back to you, that's what I experience. Because my brain has filtered this moment, and through the past.

00:30:57:07 - 00:31:18:15
Dr. Les Cole
And so those are habituated responses. And in a leadership role, we're always going to know when we do that because it breaks down collegiality. It breaks down creatives, it becomes authoritarian. And, you know, all of a sudden the ball start rolling in the wrong direction. So, you know, none of us have to go very far to figure out, oh, yep.

00:31:18:17 - 00:31:23:03
Dr. Les Cole
That that's that's what happens to me when that happens.

00:31:23:05 - 00:31:37:16
Mike O'Neill
You made reference in a leadership role. As you reflect on this conversation, we've had less. What do you want leaders listening and or watching this to have as takeaways from this conversation?

00:31:37:18 - 00:32:18:17
Dr. Les Cole
I would love for every one of us, me included, to recruit our greater awareness of what's deep with inside all of us. And that is an observing. So the part of me that is observing the moment recognizes when my patterns interpret the moment correctly or incorrectly. Notice when I have a physiological response to something that anger pops up, you know, identifying that to be able to observe ourselves moving through life and be more in the moment than in our past.

00:32:18:19 - 00:32:44:05
Mike O'Neill
You know, last, before we wrap up with our final thoughts, I do have a question for our listeners, and that is, are people following you because they have to or because they want to? Are they obligated or inspired from a leadership coach? And I work with executives who have a successful track record, but they're now feeling stuck in their careers or on how to move their company forward.

00:32:44:07 - 00:33:16:20
Mike O'Neill
They're frustrated because they're fighting with each level success, the bar gets set even higher, and what worked in the past is no longer working. So I get to work with these leaders to uncover hidden blindspots, challenge limiting beliefs, and foster a strong sense of accountability. So if feeling stuck sounds like you or someone you know, let's talk head over to bench-builders.com to schedule a call now less I hope in our conversation what it out.

00:33:16:20 - 00:33:40:04
Mike O'Neill
I don't do what you do. I am not a mental health professional. That's what you or your colleagues should. Therefore, you've opened my eyes to a lot of things that I have not been aware of. So thank you. I appreciate you sharing your expertise and if folks want to reach out to you, what's the best way for them to connect with you as you know.

00:33:40:06 - 00:33:45:15
Dr. Les Cole
This says a lot about me. Like, let me give you my cell phone number.

00:33:45:17 - 00:33:46:22
Mike O'Neill
Wow, I love it.

00:33:46:24 - 00:34:16:16
Dr. Les Cole
Yeah. (770) 608-1715. always back back to you. By the end of the day. It may be the end of the day the way most of my days go, but, that that's the best way to get Ahold of me. do you have any questions, concerns, etc.? And you know, what you and I do is different, Mike. But in some ways, it's very much the same, because when folks come to you stuck, that is the greatest moment of opportunity in their life.

00:34:16:18 - 00:34:24:18
Dr. Les Cole
And what we both do is we're both midwives. something wanting new, wanting to be birthed.

00:34:24:20 - 00:34:48:12
Mike O'Neill
You know, let's I, I've done these podcasts for quite some time. You're the first person to say, hey, just call me. Here's my cell phone. So that gives our viewers and listeners, a sense of how accessible Doctor Cole wants to be. Thank you for, sharing your expertise, your passion, with with me and with us today, doctor.

00:34:48:13 - 00:34:49:07
Mike O'Neill
Cold.

00:34:49:09 - 00:34:53:09
Dr. Les Cole
It's been a delightful journey, Michael. Thank you for having me.

00:34:53:11 - 00:35:02:10
Mike O'Neill
I want to thank our listeners for joining us, and I hope you have picked up on some quick winds from Doctor Cole. They'll help you get unstuck in on target.

00:35:04:17 - 00:35:08:17
Mike O'Neill
Thank you for joining us for this episode of Get Unstuck and on Target.

00:35:08:19 - 00:35:29:07
Mike O'Neill
I hope you gain insights to help you lead with competence and drive your organization forward. Remember it, Bench builders. We're committed to your success, your leadership excellence, and your strategic growth. If you've enjoyed our conversation today, please leave a review rate and subscribe to keep up with our latest episode.

00:35:29:16 - 00:35:33:16
Mike O'Neill
This show really grows when listeners like you share it with others.

00:35:33:15 - 00:35:37:03
Mike O'Neill
Who do you know? Who needs to hear what we talked about today?

00:35:37:12 - 00:35:44:17
Mike O'Neill
Until next time, I encourage you to stay. Focus on the target and continue to break new ground on your leadership path.