Ep159 Thomas Gilman - Transforming the Golden Rule into Platinum - Business Growth with a Personal Touch

ƒ00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:10 Mike O'Neill Welcome back to Get Unstuck and on Target, I'm Mike O'Neil with Bench Builders. Whether we're working with supervisors to improve their people skills or it's me coaching the leader one on one, getting leaders and companies unstuck is at the heart of everything we do. And that's exactly what this podcast is all about. Joining me again is Thomas Gilman.

00:00:22:15 - 00:00:53:09 Mike O'Neill Thomas is the founder of Driving Business Growth. He's a chemical engineer with an MBA. He has 40 plus years of in-depth experience in operations, project engineering, economic analysis, planning, strategy and audit. In short, Thomas uses his experience to help businesses grow. We've all heard of the Golden Rule. Today, I've asked Thomas to share his take on the Platinum rule.

00:00:53:11 - 00:00:53:22 Mike O'Neill Welcome.

00:00:53:22 - 00:00:58:12 Thomas Gilman Thomas Hey, thanks, Mike. It's great to be here. Really appreciate it.

00:00:58:14 - 00:01:20:24 Mike O'Neill You know, it's been a while since you're on the podcast. Matter of fact, I think the episode number was in the seventies. And if my number system is right, we're at 159 as an episode. So if you do the math that this is a weekly podcast, you can see a lot has happened. Now you and I have stayed in contact and that's one reason I wanted to bring you back on.

00:01:20:24 - 00:01:29:21 Mike O'Neill But for our viewers and listeners who saw and heard you, then give us an update, kind of what's going on in your world.

00:01:29:23 - 00:01:51:22 Thomas Gilman You know, the last time we talked, I was relatively freshly out of the corporate world and, you know, moving in to helping businesses reduce their cost and grow in other ways. And since that time, I've had a lot more clients, a lot more conversations, and I've met a lot of people out there trying to help businesses, and I can use them as resources.

00:01:52:02 - 00:02:16:03 Thomas Gilman But the main thing that I do is listening to the business. You know, I'm not trying to force them into my primary thing. You know, one size fits all. I can fix their problem with this every time. You know, when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And to me, you've got to listen to whether that's a nail or maybe that's a filtered screwdriver.

00:02:16:04 - 00:02:40:23 Thomas Gilman You know, it's like, what is the issue with the business that you can help with? And maybe that's not even me. Maybe I introduced them to you. Maybe you are the solution that they need. So that's my main thing that I've learned since we talk last time, is listening to the business really helps get them what they need quicker and whether that if it's me, great, you know, I love that love helping businesses.

00:02:40:23 - 00:02:48:12 Thomas Gilman But if it's not, if it's somebody else that I know, I am very happy to introduce them.

00:02:48:14 - 00:03:17:06 Mike O'Neill Well, I can attest to that firsthand. THOMAS Because over the last years that we've known each other, we've not met in person. I'm in Georgia. You're in Texas. We've had multiple conversations. And you have been kind enough to introduce me to folks who are unique, who you believe we should meet, and that has been most fruitful. That was the kind of the theme of the podcast episode we recorded back then.

00:03:17:08 - 00:03:35:23 Mike O'Neill But what you did in doing so, Thomas, is you kind of modeled this notion of the the platinum rule. And when you and I were talking last, I kind of go, tell me more about that. And so may I take a moment? I'm going to read what I looked up and see to what extent you would agree of this definition.

00:03:36:00 - 00:04:02:23 Mike O'Neill The golden rule is normally referred to as do unto others as you would have them do to you. In other words, treat other people in business and in life the way yourself would want to be treated. The Platinum rule is a variation of the golden rule that calls for a more thoughtful approach when dealing with others. It ask that you do unto others as they would want to be done to them.

00:04:03:00 - 00:04:16:15 Mike O'Neill In simple terms, following the platinum rule means making sure you know how the people around you want to be treated. What do you think about that definition? Does that kind of capture your take on it, too?

00:04:16:17 - 00:04:38:13 Thomas Gilman Yeah, that's really great. I think that one of the things is the ease of which rules. So the golden rule, you know what you like personally. So it's really easy to portray that on to them. I like coffee. They're probably a coffee drinker. Let's offer them coffee. But the platinum rule says, they may hate coffee. Let's see if they're a tea drinker.

00:04:38:13 - 00:05:03:11 Thomas Gilman Let's see what they're about. And so the whole emphasis changes from you trying to help them the way you would want to be helped toward you, finding out first how would they want to be helped and then offering that. And so it really changes the emphasis of getting to know the person before you offer help. And that's what the platinum rule is all about.

00:05:03:11 - 00:05:25:08 Thomas Gilman And why it takes a little longer. You have to be a little more aware of the person that you're talking to. And then it also leads to a better relationship because they see that you're taking the care to not just offer them coffee. It's like, what's your favorite beverage role in a business setting? That getting to know somebody takes a lot longer, you know, it takes more effort.

00:05:25:08 - 00:05:45:23 Thomas Gilman It takes an open mind as to how you might be able to help them, because if they're having like a business struggle of some time, it takes a while before they're going to open up. They're not just going to tell you on the first phone call. They're just not going to open their book of issues that you might be able to help them with.

00:05:45:23 - 00:06:06:07 Thomas Gilman You have to establish the relationship, see what their background is and how they attack things, kind of know their personality more. So much more work, but so much more rewarding in that you're much more likely to offer them something that they want.

00:06:06:09 - 00:06:37:22 Mike O'Neill You know, you mentioned that you were transitioning from a corporate role and to owning your own business, advising other businesses and to some extent, what you do for your clients. And what I do for my clients is we're there to advise, but they're not going to take our advice until there's a relationship that's establish a relationship based on trust, the nature of the kind of work you do.

00:06:37:24 - 00:07:08:10 Mike O'Neill You help companies do the things they need to do to grow. But the information that you probably need to be most successful is information that they might be kind of reluctant to divulge. Right. Are you finding are you finding that potential clients are just taking longer to embrace this idea of a relationship for trust? Does it take longer, in your opinion, than it used to to establish these relationships?

00:07:08:12 - 00:07:37:22 Thomas Gilman Well, so I you know, it's always it depends, you know, the classic response. So basically, there are some people that are ready to pull the trigger and it doesn't matter the relationship. They hear of a product that you're offering and they say, yeah, I want to do that. Let's go. Those are very rare people. More likely is, yeah, you're going to have to take some time and it's going to take a little bit longer, but that relationship is going to last longer as well.

00:07:37:22 - 00:08:05:02 Thomas Gilman So if you're just cold calling people. Yes. No. Yes. No. Yes. No. Yes. New all day. That's not what I do. You know, I'm going to be not even probably getting to a new thing for quite some time before I know their business issues and they open up a little bit. Then I can start to suggest things, you know, and not just the products that I I'm holding, but all the resources that I have.

00:08:05:04 - 00:08:30:06 Thomas Gilman A lot of times that relationship yields somebody else's sale. And that's what the referral thing was all about. But the cool part about it is when you refer somebody that's stellar like yourself, then that builds up the relationship. So that maybe in the future you might be able to help them with something that you sell. And so it's not being short sighted.

00:08:30:06 - 00:08:51:19 Thomas Gilman I guess that's the thing. You know, there's always another business to call on, but maybe this is the business that needs either your own help or somebody that you know. And isn't it more fulfilling to help somebody that needs that help? So, yeah, it takes a little while longer. And especially on Zoom, Zoom is a different thing than in-person.

00:08:51:21 - 00:09:01:09 Thomas Gilman And so the combination of those is going to lead to multiple meetings probably before they get comfortable.

00:09:01:11 - 00:09:35:19 Mike O'Neill You know, as I think about the services you offer, there's a very much kind of a bottom line impact feel to it. One could say, well, if Thomas can't deliver the results that I think he can, then this is more of a transaction. He'll come in advise. I save the money, I pay Thomas And what I'm hearing you describe is that though it may take longer to enter into the relationship, you're finding that the types of relationships that you are entering into typically last longer.

00:09:35:19 - 00:09:38:13 Mike O'Neill They're less transactional. Did I hear that right?

00:09:38:15 - 00:10:06:16 Thomas Gilman Yeah, very true. And even the ones that start out transactional, you know, it's my goal to build them into a more solid relationship that lasts longer. And that's not for additional, you know, sales or upselling or anything else. It's a genuine wanting to see that business succeed. Because if they have me in things that they've tried and they're successful or I'm part of that, you know, I feel like I'm part of the reason that they've been successful.

00:10:06:18 - 00:10:34:03 Thomas Gilman The thing about what I offer though, you know, cost reduction or enhanced credit or any of the other business activities that I help is I like to make sure that the relationship is the start. But what I provide to them is measurable. So concrete steps toward a measurable result means that this is not you know, you hear about some consultants and it's just hand waving.

00:10:34:03 - 00:10:55:13 Thomas Gilman And maybe what they did helped and maybe it was circumstances. What I like to do is have a concrete result based on the steps that I provided. So they see a cause and effect and can say, yes, you know, we hired Tom, this is what happened. And I'm not the consultant that says, well, I don't know if he helped or not, but it felt good.

00:10:55:13 - 00:11:04:22 Thomas Gilman You know, that's not my kind of thing. I hope it feels good for them for being more profitable and growing. That's what I'm trying to get them to do.

00:11:04:24 - 00:11:26:02 Mike O'Neill What I like about you, Thomas, is that you have not only just demeanor about you, that's very easy. You don't lose sight of what is it you're trying to do? You're trying to help. I seen that firsthand. Let's go back to this platinum rule definition. Okay? Do unto others as they would want to be done to them.

00:11:26:04 - 00:11:26:23 Thomas Gilman Right.

00:11:27:00 - 00:11:40:09 Mike O'Neill And we're talking about that's a that's a higher level of commitment. How have you found what approaches that you found work best to best understand what would be most meaningful to them?

00:11:40:11 - 00:12:05:07 Thomas Gilman Right. So I would say it starts with the first discovery call just to see if there's any, you know, availability for their business and what I can help them with. And in that call, I'm making sure that I'm cognizant that they are a business owner and by definition very busy. So what I'm portraying that I would want. So this is back to the Golden rule.

00:12:05:07 - 00:12:25:07 Thomas Gilman What I would want from them is as little time as possible to get through this call, you know, 15 minutes, can we do it in 15 minutes to see if if another call is warranted? Well, that's the way I would want it. And often that's true. But a lot of times in that call, it turns out that they want to talk more about their business in that call.

00:12:25:07 - 00:12:47:03 Thomas Gilman And so I'm open, you know, if they want to spend 30 minutes, 45 minutes going through things, I'm not going to be trying to get off the phone. I'm listening to them and how much time they want to spend. So that's just one example of, you know, I have how I would want to be treated, but they may be having something different and I want to treat them the way they want to.

00:12:47:07 - 00:13:14:20 Thomas Gilman Maybe they want to spend more time because they're at that point where a deeper conversation is already needed. And I'm saying, yeah, sure, you know, I will walk through as far as they want. So that's the first call, the discovery call. It's called a lot of things. But basically, let's say that they're typical and they spend 15 minutes and then we set up the second call.

00:13:14:22 - 00:13:34:23 Thomas Gilman Well, I'm going to find out as much as I can to make sure that I have the best guess at what they want to talk about next. I don't want them to have to explain the ABCs of their business. I'll look that up online, and I think they'd really appreciate that. So if they want to go back to the ABCs, I'll listen to that.

00:13:34:23 - 00:14:17:19 Thomas Gilman But if they want to just move ahead and have a deeper conversation because I've gotten up to speed with them, that's me making an effort to treat them as they would like to be treated. So it gives them the option of how they want to be treated. And, you know, it's a it's more work once again. But I think it's more productive and helps me understand how I can help them besides what I do, you know, And there might be context that I have that are nothing close to business growth, but maybe they need a I don't know, an attorney or some other resource that I can help them with.

00:14:17:21 - 00:14:21:18 Thomas Gilman Happy to do that.

00:14:21:20 - 00:14:43:24 Mike O'Neill You know, as I'm listening to you, the word listening just keeps kind of pop in my mind. And that is if you're really going to do understand what's important to them, you really have to listen well. Right. What approaches to listening have you found works in this crazy, hectic, fast paced environment?

00:14:44:04 - 00:15:04:02 Thomas Gilman Exactly. And I would say the number one technique is be quiet longer than you think you should. So you and I, when we talk, it's back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. But when you're talking to someone and trying to get information out of them, a lot of times you don't have to jump in. Maybe they were just ready to tell you something significant.

00:15:04:04 - 00:15:35:08 Thomas Gilman So just take the responses a little bit slower and they may feel that an ease of quiet and fill it with something that allows you to learn more about them. And so I would say being genuine, number one and being being able to listen so that you're not hogging, you know, kind of like in this meeting, I'm hogging the conversation, but that's not how you want to be when you're talking to a business and trying to figure out how you can help them.

00:15:35:10 - 00:15:54:18 Thomas Gilman And I would say that the businesses will start to talk about themselves in general. You know, that's not the hard part. The hard part is getting them to talk about issues that you can help them with. And that's where the relationship building takes a little bit longer.

00:15:54:20 - 00:16:28:23 Mike O'Neill You're describing the the importance of letting them talk and resist the temptation to talk to yourself. And it kind of remind me of something I'm finding in coaching it. If I'm doing my job right, it's about the client. What is most important to them in that moment? My job is to listen closely, but ask questions that you can tell that they're pondering because there's this pause.

00:16:29:00 - 00:17:00:00 Mike O'Neill And I have concluded that it's in the pause that the real change takes place, and I have to resist the temptation to interrupt that pause. Let them process the they just had and I don't know if I'm liking it in the same way, but I resisted the temptation to fill that void, to listen, listen closely, and you're listening to not only what they say, but what they don't say.

00:17:00:02 - 00:17:00:20 Thomas Gilman Right.

00:17:00:22 - 00:17:03:01 Mike O'Neill What else are you listening for?

00:17:03:03 - 00:17:39:18 Thomas Gilman Right. So it you know, I've been at this a little while and now and I think it's important to differentiate that pause that that they're thinking of something and probably going to provide some valuable feedback after they talk about it with just an awkward conversation that you're not hitting it off with them. So these pauses need to happen after that rapport is established and how, you know, after they realize that, he's just not selling me something, he's, you know, really wondering how he can help me.

00:17:39:20 - 00:17:59:07 Thomas Gilman Once that's established, then those policies are significant. But if you're at the beginning of the call, don't have a relationship and there's these awkward pauses, that's not what I'm talking about, that that you need to make them feel comfortable, make them realize that you're there. You know, and hoping to help them and, you know, just have a little fun with the conversation.

00:17:59:07 - 00:18:20:17 Thomas Gilman You know, if you had a full business day of awkward conversations, that would be a long time. But I find when I meet people, it's a lot of fun. You know, you learn about really great people and, you know, sure, they're busy, but they have some really cool things that you're going to learn from and you're going to have fun with them.

00:18:20:17 - 00:18:43:01 Thomas Gilman So that is the main thing is to keep it light. It's not the end of the world. You're not going to get a sale every call. That's not the goal. The goal is to build that relationship. And once you take that pressure off yourself, that, man, I need to close this sale. It's a whole different world. And that leads to more sales eventually.

00:18:43:03 - 00:19:05:21 Mike O'Neill The nature of the work you do for clients, it's diverse, but if you were to summarize, you help business owners, business leaders grow their business. As you've been out there doing this, what have you found to be perhaps the most common challenge that business owners are facing now?

00:19:05:23 - 00:19:36:17 Thomas Gilman Right. I would say the most common is access to capital. And we have some great responses. But, you know, I'm going to like go beyond and say the second best they have. The second biggest thing is human resources. So retaining people, developing people, the whole people side dealing with conflict. And so that's why I love working with you, because between us, we handle most of the big problems that businesses face these days.

00:19:36:19 - 00:20:01:00 Thomas Gilman You know, one of the things about great relationship building with a business is you can go from treating them as you yourself would want to be treated. The golden rule to the platinum rule, which is treating them as they would like to be treated. You know, you have to know how they would be treated. But the next step, the diamond rule, is treating them how they don't even know they want to be treated.

00:20:01:02 - 00:20:27:03 Thomas Gilman And you have to know somebody really well to anticipate, wow, they would love this next thing. And so if you know them well enough and you have a good relationship with them, you can start to exceed their expectations. And that is a great place to be because now they're there thinking that you're going to do one thing and you do that in the way they want.

00:20:27:03 - 00:20:47:08 Thomas Gilman But then you go beyond that and they're like, Whoa, what just happened? This is awesome. And that's when you have business relationships with people that are, you know, getting more than they expect. That is a great it's just a great feeling to be having that business relationship.

00:20:47:10 - 00:21:10:17 Mike O'Neill Now, you're not characterizing this in the way I'm about to say, but I'm reading into this is that when you and when you bring to the conversation or to their awareness things that they might not have even thought of, and you did that because you really try to put yourself in their shoes, that value you add to the relationship.

00:21:10:19 - 00:21:44:07 Mike O'Neill It's hard to quantify, but it can't help. But my thought is, when you do that and you deliver that for your client, then they're so much more prone to have you at top of mind when something pops out, when they're talking to another business leader. That and they and I do so very comfortably because it's a way to kind of almost pay that forward for lack of a better term.

00:21:44:09 - 00:22:14:09 Mike O'Neill I don't want to knock each transaction, but what I would say is that if your business is like mine, it's highly dependent on referrals. Is that when someone says, I think you ought to talk to Tom, Tom has really got to know our business. He's gotten to know me. Matter of fact, he has even brought to my attention things I have not even thought about that really has made a difference.

00:22:14:11 - 00:22:20:10 Mike O'Neill If they said those three sentences to someone, odds are your phone is going to be ringing.

00:22:20:12 - 00:22:49:23 Thomas Gilman Right? Right. Yeah. And it's the so there's an ethics of reciprocity. When somebody does something great for you, you are just an ethical person would want to return the favor and not in a transactional way, but in a way that makes you feel good about yourself for returning the favor. And so I am not manipulative to think that that's what I'm getting at when I try to exceed their expectations.

00:22:49:23 - 00:23:20:08 Thomas Gilman I'm doing it because I think it helps their business more than they can imagine. But a benefit as a business person is, yeah, that reciprocity, those referrals that come and it's just a great feeling when you're able to help somebody, they refer you and then you help them. And then those two talk about each other, about how you help both of them, you know, and then a whole conversation gets started about, well, who else can we tell about this great thing that Tom does?

00:23:20:08 - 00:23:23:23 Thomas Gilman You know, that's a that's a cool place to be.

00:23:24:00 - 00:23:56:23 Mike O'Neill Yeah. I want to say this awkwardly, but what kind of crossed my mind as you're describing that, Thomas, is that when you are able to help someone, you are finding, you're actually finding value yourself. It adds meaning that you're able to help others. And in today's world, when you can say what I do for others makes a difference, that when you go to bed at night, you know that you have helped might not result in a business for you, but it's helped them.

00:23:56:23 - 00:24:12:10 Mike O'Neill And that that feeling of I've made a difference in their lives I can't help but think can lead to a greater sense of just self-satisfaction as to what you do and how you do it. Does that make sense?

00:24:12:12 - 00:24:39:04 Thomas Gilman Yeah. You know, when I help a business, whether it means that money is falling into my checkbook or whether it means that they're just doing better because I introduced them to somebody, I get the same great feeling either way. You know, what drives me is not, you know, you know, another million dollars in sales. That's not it. It's more let's try to get that feeling as often as we can, because it means we're helping as many people as possible.

00:24:39:08 - 00:24:50:02 Thomas Gilman So, yeah, it's, you know, different people are driven by different things. And I find that what drives me is that satisfaction of helping others.

00:24:50:04 - 00:25:31:06 Mike O'Neill Well, I know we're talking about the platinum rule, and I'm speaking with someone who this just comes a bit more naturally. Then it might come to others, but you strike me as someone, Thomas, who just your demeanor is one in which people probably are not put off by you. You have a less pushy way about what you do, and as a result, it comes across to me as the reason why you can model the platinum rule is because that truly is an extension of who you are.

00:25:31:06 - 00:25:34:14 Mike O'Neill You literally believe this at your core.

00:25:34:16 - 00:26:07:01 Thomas Gilman Right? Yeah, I think that's true. And you also don't have a huge ego. It's not about me, you know, It's about helping that other business. And I think that helps not only just the way I am naturally, but also I've tried, you know, sales techniques that are a little more pushy. It just doesn't feel right. And if I'm trying to, you know, behave the way they would like me to behave toward them, I can't imagine the person that was me.

00:26:07:02 - 00:26:32:04 Thomas Gilman And I wish this guy was more pushy, you know? And so it's reinforcing as I'm successful is reinforcing to just be myself, build that business relationship. And then if I can help them either through the products that I carry or other things, just my knowledge of business, anything, any tips or hints or other resources that I can provide, happy to do it.

00:26:32:06 - 00:26:51:14 Mike O'Neill I'm going to take a little bit of a diversion just for a moment. And that is like me. You came out of a corporate role into doing what you do For those who are listening or watching this, who are in corporate roles in the back of their mind says, Gosh, I would like to do what Thomas does or what Mike does.

00:26:51:16 - 00:27:00:11 Mike O'Neill What is your probably go to first piece of advice to those folks who are contemplating making such a move.

00:27:00:13 - 00:27:36:15 Thomas Gilman I would say understand what networking is. And in a corporate world, networking is one thing in the free market business world, networking is something totally different. And it took me a little time to see that difference and then become good at it. So yeah, I would initially start to think about external networking and get good at that. Once that's done, sales techniques, running your own business, all those things is going to take a lot more energy than waking up going to your corporate job.

00:27:36:19 - 00:27:43:02 Thomas Gilman And even if your corporate job is taxing, having your own business is another level.

00:27:43:04 - 00:28:23:06 Mike O'Neill Yeah, I mean, we may have I know you and I have talked about this offline. I think there's a misunderstanding about self-employment. It can be very rewarding, but it does require a lot of work because you got to do everything that in the corporate world you have other people who actually doing that. As you look back on this experience thus far, you are the founder of Driving Business Growth and you have available to your clients a variety of potential solutions on that.

00:28:23:08 - 00:28:29:23 Mike O'Neill What inspiration did you have for those folks who are contemplating making such a move?

00:28:30:00 - 00:29:00:09 Thomas Gilman Right. So I would be intense and patient at the same time. So you cannot take your eye off the ball of what you're doing because like you said, you're the only one involved. And so every day that you wake up and kind of waste half the day, that's an opportunity that's not going to come back. And so you need to keep your eye on the ball with that energy, but also be patient because it's not going to be overnight.

00:29:00:09 - 00:29:20:21 Thomas Gilman It's not like when you're in a corporation and get a promotion and then, you know, everything's new and exciting, but you've got all those contacts from your company and most of it's the same. This is totally different and so if you had the opportunity to develop networks before you move out into the corporate world, then that puts you a little bit ahead.

00:29:20:23 - 00:29:29:22 Thomas Gilman But yeah, just get ready for a a whole learning experience and be humble patient, but also keep your eye on the ball and energetic about it.

00:29:29:24 - 00:29:49:04 Mike O'Neill I love it. Very well said Thomas. As you can reflect on the conversation we've had, we focused primarily on your interpretation of what the platinum rule is and why it's important for us to understand it and act on that. What do you want to be the takeaways for our listeners?

00:29:49:06 - 00:30:13:04 Thomas Gilman Right. I think the main thing is the more you can put the emphasis on the person across the table or across the room rather than yourself, you know, you have maybe you have something to sell and you start talking about that thing. That person across the table is going to be hard to close with because they don't know you.

00:30:13:06 - 00:30:34:14 Thomas Gilman They're not sure that you're genuine. But once you establish a business relationship and understand how they would like to be sold or talked to, you're going to your chances of success are going to be greater. So more work, but greater success. I guess that's what I would take away from the platinum rule.

00:30:34:16 - 00:30:43:20 Mike O'Neill I love that. Thomas If folks have been listening as a man, I want to I want to connect with Thomas. I'd like to learn more from you. What's the best way for them to do that?

00:30:43:22 - 00:31:10:24 Thomas Gilman Right. So you can call me, email me. They'll be, I guess, contact information at the bottom of this website podcast. And yeah, just reach out. I'm happy to talk to folks and help them through anything that they have or just give my advice or learn from them. You know, maybe they have advice for me. I'd like to hear either way.

00:31:11:01 - 00:31:30:14 Mike O'Neill So if you're driving or you're not, you write that down. I've been speaking with Thomas Gilman. His business is called driving business growth. We're going to be putting his contact information in the show notes. So if you'll go and look at those, you have all of that to include LinkedIn profile and the like. Thomas I don't do this very regularly.

00:31:30:14 - 00:31:44:06 Mike O'Neill You are a two time podcast guest. I do so because you were such a great one last time, but too you have so much to offer. Thank you for sharing. Who you are and how you go about taking care of your customers.

00:31:44:08 - 00:31:52:00 Thomas Gilman All right. Thanks, Mike. It's great to be back. And, you know, it'd be great to hear a little bit more about what you do.

00:31:52:02 - 00:32:11:15 Mike O'Neill Well, maybe I can do I can answer that question because I'm about to close by talking about that little bit. That's kind of a new signoff. So you to serve that up very, very well. So let me make a stab at that. Okay. If you're listening, I've got a question for our listeners. Are people following you because they have to or because they want to?

00:32:11:17 - 00:32:40:18 Mike O'Neill As a leadership coach, I work with executives who have a track record of success behind them, but they're now feeling stuck. They're frustrated because they're finding that with each level of success that follows, the bar gets set even higher. They're discouraged because what worked in the past is no longer working. My clients, despite all their successes in the past, they're lacking the clarity, the confidence to make the decisions needed to get to that next level.

00:32:40:20 - 00:33:15:05 Mike O'Neill So through coaching, we work together to unravel it. Blind spots challenge limiting beliefs and establish a strong sense of accountability. So if Feeling Stuck describes you or someone you know, let's talk go to bench dash builders dot com to schedule a call. So Thomas I thank you for that prompt on that. And I also want to thank everybody who's listening again for joining us and I hope you have picked up on some quick wins from Thomas they'll help you get unstuck and on target.

00:33:15:07 - 00:33:19:06 Thomas Gilman Thanks, Mike.